Nick...killing it in the 2 spot.

[Old#5fan]

You've just flunked logic 101. You've taken what the person said, changed it, and then argued against the changed statement that was never said. In his statement that Markakis plays "gold glove defense," he never specified whether it was fact or opinion, and in fact he has pointed out repeatedly that it was an opinion, as the context makes obvious. You have simply added that it was meant as a factual statement yourself, and then correctly argued that a statement he never made is false.

The phrase "Gold Glove Defense" can be both a description of a level of play, and a factual statement about winning gold gloves. You are arbitrarily defining it to fit your pre-judged opinion, rather than taking it in context.

Examples: If someone hits 100 home runs, bats .500, and knocks in 200 RBIs, well before the MVP voting one could say "he had an MVP season," since in the context, it is a descriptive statement, not a factual statement. One could also say that Pete Rose had a Hall of Fame playing career (a level of play), despite the fact that he is not in the Hall of Fame for reasons that have nothing to do with his playing career. A team can play championship baseball for half a season, despite the fact that they cannot win a championship in half a season, because the term "championship" is used here as a description of level of play, not a statement of fact.

And yes, a person can play gold glove defense (a description of level in this context) but not win a gold glove because the voters do not like him for other reasons.

Understand?

>If that goes over your head, I am sorry but it really isn't that hard to comprehend.

I think you need to look in the mirror. But as many point out, arguing with you is a waste of time. One cannot be reasoned out of an opinion that he never reasoned himself into in the first place.

-Larrytt

When the term "gold glove defense" was used in this context anybody with an ounce of reason knows the originator wasn't using to refer to how much Nick Markakis is potentially "liked" by Gold Glove Voters. He was using it as if he was some kind of authority in speaking that Markakis played Gold Glove Defense. Stating it the way he did was making his "opinion" or judgment of Markakis defensive prowess akin to his winning a Gold Glove Award. Since Markakis has not won such an award, for whatever reason (totally irrelevant) in the context of that statement it doesn't matter. Your other examples are equally wrong. You could only assert or conjecture that someone might or possibly have an MVP season before the actual vote takes place. You simply cannot state it as fact. I don't know what school some of you attended but they have not done their job.

He was simply stating his opinion as if if was a fact which is wrong. If he wrote something like that in an English paper he would get a huge red mark as he was blatently posting his opinion on something as if it was fact which is simply a bad mistake!:cussing: I also dont' think you would hear a tv analyst making a comment about any player mentioning Gold Glove unless he stated it clearly as an opinion or the player had actually attained the Gold Glove.

[BRobinsonfan]

Simple. Above average. He has both above average range and arm. He doesn't make stupid errors and makes the ocasional spectacular play. He gets a lot of assists but if he was truly of the elite Gold Glove caliber RFer that some like to exagerate that he is there would be very few base runners even attempting to run on him. That is not the case as evidenced by his high number of assists.

You need to hustle over to www2.sportsnet.ca/baseball.... in their scouting report on Nick Markakis they're describing him as an "All-Star-caliber outfielder" and as "A five-tool talent: hits for power & average, steals bases, and has a plus-glove and arm."

You need to let them know that he's never been voted on the All-Star team so he can't be "an all-star caliber outfielder."

[Leitch]

Simple. Above average. He has both above average range and arm. He doesn't make stupid errors and makes the ocasional spectacular play. He gets a lot of assists but if he was truly of the elite Gold Glove caliber RFer that some like to exagerate that he is there would be very few base runners even attempting to run on him. That is not the case as evidenced by his high number of assists.

The outs you get on runners attempting to run are more valuable than the runners staying put out of fear

[Old#5fan]

You need to hustle over to www2.sportsnet.ca/baseball.... in their scouting report on Nick Markakis they're describing him as an "All-Star-caliber outfielder" and as "A five-tool talent: hits for power & average, steals bases, and has a plus-glove and arm."

You need to let them know that he's never been voted on the All-Star team so he can't be "an all-star caliber outfielder."

Maybe I should as if what you state is true, they are guilty of the same moronic mistake. Until a player actually makes an all-star team stating they are "all-star" caliber is stupid and totally untrue.

[Old#5fan]

The outs you get on runners attempting to run are more valuable than the runners staying put out of fear

Which has nothing to do whatsover with this debate. Nada, ZILCH!

[Mackus]

The outs you get on runners attempting to run are more valuable than the runners staying put out of fear

Depends on the success rate.

Markakis definitely has a top notch arm, and runners don't test it very often.

[Leitch]

Maybe I should as if what you state is true, they are guilty of the same moronic mistake. Until a player actually makes an all-star team stating they are "all-star" caliber is stupid and totally untrue.

<img src="http://misers.org/pictures/SomethingAwful/20050920-lol/lmaonade.gif">

[Leitch]

Depends on the success rate.

Markakis definitely has a top notch arm, and runners don't test it very often.

True. :scratchchinhmm:

[BRobinsonfan]

Maybe I should as if what you state is true, they are guilty of the same moronic mistake. Until a player actually makes an all-star team stating they are "all-star" caliber is stupid and totally untrue.

Here ya' go. Go get 'em Old Fan!

http://www2.sportsnet.ca/baseball/mlb/players/Nick_Markakis/

[Leitch]

Which has nothing to do whatsover with this debate. Nada, ZILCH!

I'm sorry I just assumed we were discussing the value of a player's defense which would presumably factor into whether or not they deserve to win a gold glove award

[Old#5fan]

You do realize that a reputation for a strong arm is generated over time. Sure they will try to stretch a hit on him, but it's becoming less and less every time.

Sure I realize this. I also know that after a very short time hardly anyone wanted to test Roberto Clemente's arm unless they were idiots. Same with Vlad. From what I have seen of Markakis he isn't quite as consistently accurate as they were. I alos don't think he is as good as Dwight Evans was as far as an arm and accuracy.

[Leitch]

Sure I realize this. I also know that after a very short time hardly anyone wanted to test Roberto Clemente's arm unless they were idiots. Same with Vlad. From what I have seen of Markakis he isn't quite as consistently accurate as they were. I alos don't think he is as good as Dwight Evans was as far as an arm and accuracy.

So Markakis doesn't deserve a GG because he's not Roberto Clemente?

[El Gordo]

Maybe I should as if what you state is true, they are guilty of the same moronic mistake. Until a player actually makes an all-star team stating they are "all-star" caliber is stupid and totally untrue.

It is neither stupid or untrue. If a player puts up numbers similar to or better than an All Star player at his position, it is quite correct to say his play is at an All Star caliber.

[ChaosLex]

Sure I realize this. I also know that after a very short time hardly anyone wanted to test Roberto Clemente's arm unless they were idiots. Same with Vlad. From what I have seen of Markakis he isn't quite as consistently accurate as they were. I alos don't think he is as good as Dwight Evans was as far as an arm and accuracy.

Wasn't Markakis the ML leader in assists for the first few months of the season?

[Old#5fan]

So Markakis doesn't deserve a GG because he's not Roberto Clemente?

How in the world did you extract this ludicrous statement from what I wrote? :confused:Makes me wonder if some of you are not still in elementary school, as for all I know that could be actually possible.:scratchchinhmm:

I was merely using the example of Clemente (best RF arm I ever saw) along with Vlad and Dewey Evans (the other two best I have ever seen) as examples that when you are truly elite runners put on the brakes and don't even try to test you. This is not the case with Nick. He gets tested a lot as evidenced by his high number of assists.