Roch: Pitching In

[TonySoprano]

4 hours ago, Frobby said:

Brocail sounds a little frustrated.    I think he’s the most vulnerable of our coaches to being replaced.  It’s a lousy staff, but 5.91 ERA?

Well, the manager and pitching coach are giving them a plan, watching it be ignored, and predictable results follow.   The team ERA for August is 3.50 above July, which had already been ranked 26th.   Meanwhile, the top 5 staffs in baseball have an ERA of 3.50 or less this month.

[spiritof66]

Having watched more games this season than I care to think about, I think the problem with the Orioles' pitchers has much more to do with their inability to execute consistently than with pitch selection or strategy. There's nobody on the staff who can consistently put the ball close to the catcher's target, or pitch to the corners, or throw strikes without putting the ball over the center of the plate.

When a pitcher lacks the ability to locate his pitches, pitching inside is risky. If the pitch is less inside than intended, it can be a very hittable pitch on the inside part of the plate, which can be pulled with power. If it's further inside than intended, it hits or comes close to hitting the batter, resulting in flared tempers or, possibly, a baserunner or a umpire's warning. I can't estimate a number, but a bunch of the  HRs yielded by the Orioles have come when the catcher has set up inside but the pitch was over the inner third or the heart of the plate. Pitching inside won't help when you can't consistently throw the ball where it's supposed to go, and Oriole pitchers don't have the ability to do that.

[Oriole1940]

When a pitcher has enough TALENT,  the things being discussed are not  discussed.  What is being discussed are things a talented pitcher does regularly.  The definition of talent, something this organization seems incapable of doing in the drafting process .  

[esmd]

3 hours ago, Tony-OH said:

I see this all the time in the minors as well. Catchers love sitting low and away for some reason and they rarely call for pitches in. Pitchers like Wells and Lowther do a good job of pitching to all quadrants of the plate which is what all the pitchers should be doing regardless of fastball velocity and stuff.

Do you think that was all or part of the issue with Sisco's real or imagined defensive deficiencies?

[esmd]

6 hours ago, mdbdotcom said:

He didn't discuss why he hasn't been able to fix any of it in more than 2/3 of a season. Sounds like a guy making excuses for coaching a pitching staff that produces exceptionally bad results..

There may be some truth to that, but if he's telling them to pitch in, pitch in, pitch in, and they won't or can't do it, not sure how that's his fault.  I was just surprised at the transparency of his comments and lack of "coach speak."  Good job by Roch getting those comments out of him, IMO.

[Tony-OH]

6 minutes ago, esmd said:

Do you think that was all or part of the issue with Sisco's real or imagined defensive deficiencies?

I don't think Sisco has/d imagined defensive deficiencies, but I haven't really looked at Sisco close enough to see how he's setting up so I can't give an educated opinion. 

I will say this though, regardless of where the catchers have been setting up, it's the pitchers that have been grooving pitches way too much. Can pitching inside help, absolutely, and I love when I see young pitchers willing to do so, but in my mind, the most important part of pitching is being able to pitch to all quadrants of the edge of the zone while changing speeds. 

It's exactly what I saw from Zach Davies in Frederick when I fell in "love" with him there and had him in our top 10 when many publications barely had him in their top 30. I saw a guy who changed eye levels, and worked to all quadrants while changing speeds with three pitches, two of which were offspeed (change and curveball).

I see similar things with Lowther and Wells which is why I'm so much higher on them then guys who throw hard but either don't change speeds well or can't command to the quadrants. I'm always skeptical of pitchers who throw to one main area (low and away) only. This was an Issue with Gausman. He could not command gloveside and his fastball tended to leak back over the middle of the plate, but he kept trying to pitch to the outside mostly. 

[TGO]

We have the 7th most HBP in the majors this season so we're throwing inside sometimes. The problem is this staff has crap command.

[LA2]

2 hours ago, Tony-OH said:

I will say this though, regardless of where the catchers have been setting up, it's the pitchers that have been grooving pitches way too much. Can pitching inside help, absolutely, and I love when I see young pitchers willing to do so, but in my mind, the most important part of pitching is being able to pitch to all quadrants of the edge of the zone while changing speeds. 

It's exactly what I saw from Zach Davies in Frederick when I fell in "love" with him there and had him in our top 10 when many publications barely had him in their top 30. I saw a guy who changed eye levels, and worked to all quadrants while changing speeds with three pitches, two of which were offspeed (change and curveball).

I see similar things with Lowther and Wells which is why I'm so much higher on them then guys who throw hard but either don't change speeds well or can't command to the quadrants. I'm always skeptical of pitchers who throw to one main area (low and away) only. This was an Issue with Gausman. He could not command gloveside and his fastball tended to leak back over the middle of the plate, but he kept trying to pitch to the outside mostly. 

Why wasn't the Orioles brain trust unable to see or value this?

[sportsfan8703]

Didn’t read analytics mentioned once. 

[AnythingO's]

As to pitching inside, when I look at the photos of Zimmerman and Kremer that appear with the Minor league summaries, every time I think "these guys aren't going to have any issue with pitching inside". There is an intensity in their eyes that reeks of confidence.

[atomic]

16 hours ago, mdbdotcom said:

He didn't discuss why he hasn't been able to fix any of it in more than 2/3 of a season. Sounds like a guy making excuses for coaching a pitching staff that produces exceptionally bad results..

My does he need excuses? The guys on the staff other than Bundy and Givens were expected to be this bad. Means has far exceeded expectations.  I dont see other teams filling a pitching staff with waiver claims and being great..

[atomic]

16 hours ago, RZNJ said:

In "the good old days" the Orioles had good pitchers and continuity. George Bamberger. Ray Miller.  They were probably good coaches but probably not as great as most of us think.  They had good pitchers to work with.  Seniority and tenure command some respect.  

Most development of pitchers happens in the minor leagues.  Also having a pitchers park always makes your pitching better.

[Roll Tide]

21 hours ago, Frobby said:

Brocail sounds a little frustrated.    I think he’s the most vulnerable of our coaches to being replaced.  It’s a lousy staff, but 5.91 ERA?

I don't think this is Brocail's fault anymore than it's Hyde's. And I don't believe it's his either. We are getting pitchers out of the dumpster (waiver wire). Out of desperation we are recalling guys from AAA that have 6-7+ ERAs. The outcome is predictable.

[sportsfan8703]

4 hours ago, atomic said:

My does he need excuses? The guys on the staff other than Bundy and Givens were expected to be this bad. Means has far exceeded expectations.  I dont see other teams filling a pitching staff with waiver claims and being great..

I saw an interview with Means on MASN with Rob Long. Good story. Means was home last year after the milb season ended and got a call saying we wanted him to pitch a little. 

Means talked about how getting hammered in BOS drove his entire offseason. He knew we hired Elias so he independently went to a place with analytical technology and learned where/how to throw his pitches. 

Analytics isn’t some miracle, but it’s all strategy. Brocail gives some long winded interview talking about bad strategy. Doesn’t mention analytics once. We were constructed to be a 100 loss team. We were told to trust this new science and it would work out. So far I’ve seen a theory of lots of losing. That’s not very innovative. 

Hyde was our 8th choice as manager and Brocail was probably in the teens to be pitching coach. I don’t see anyone chomping at the bit to take either job this offseason. 

If the answer to the lack of analytics at the MLB level is that our pitchers up here are lost causes, well then I have to really respect Elias’s opinion. Because they are. 

I think Bundy, with his offspeed pitches, could benefit from analytics. 

[Frobby]

6 hours ago, atomic said:

Most development of pitchers happens in the minor leagues.  Also having a pitchers park always makes your pitching better.

I think it’s going to be interesting to see whether our pitchers come to the majors better prepared than they did in the MacPhail/Duquette eras.    I’ve gotten the clear impression that our MiL pitchers are being forced to develop and rely on their secondary pitchers more, and perhaps they’re being schooled on working inside, too.