Poll: what do you think of the Astros’ punishment?

[DrungoHazewood]

15 hours ago, bobmc said:

Did you toss it 60' 6"?  btw - they used that very ball for nine innings!  

 

I threw it more like 80'.  Two hops to the backstop.  Probably 3' outside.  I have a bum shoulder from a long-ago softball injury, and there was no opportunity to warm up.  It was kind of horrific.  But I do have a photograph of me in mid-windup that looks like I knew what I was doing.

[DrungoHazewood]

2 hours ago, LookinUp said:

Well, the other option is to declare that it's all allowable and it's up to the other team to prevent it. I'm personally of the opinion that fewer rules and more transparency is generally a better way to run things.

In that case, everyone would have the cheating equipment and would be forced to manage the pitching game in a way that prevents cheating, or even takes advantage of it (make them think one thing is coming at a big spot but go another route). That would likely be followed by electronic pitch calling though, which might have to come from the dug out, which would change the C position forever. 

A few pages ago I said something like "if you don't want your signs stolen use better cryptography."  Teams need to get creative.  Have the catcher go through signs like usual, but the real sign is something else.  Like where the catchers shoes are pointing, or where his glove hand is resting.  Have someone sit in the stands behind the plate giving real signs and the catcher's are all fake.  Legalize some kind of simple electronic system between pitcher and catcher.  Use the rotating advertising boards behind the plate - fastball is Ollies Bargain Outlet, curve is Verizon (but keep having the catcher give fake signs). Have the catcher or pitching coach use a little handheld device that controls seemingly innocuous lights in the pressbox that would indicate pitches.

This is really a rules change and harsh punishments about not wanting to have to really try hard to avoid sign stealing.  I think you assume everyone is stealing your signs all the time, so you need to come up with a different and better approach.

Looking back on this it seems a little silly that the baseball world is all in an outrage because someone broke their kindergarten-level communications encryption system.

[Mr. Chewbacca Jr.]

1 hour ago, DrungoHazewood said:

A few pages ago I said something like "if you don't want your signs stolen use better cryptography."  Teams need to get creative.  Have the catcher go through signs like usual, but the real sign is something else.  Like where the catchers shoes are pointing, or where his glove hand is resting.  Have someone sit in the stands behind the plate giving real signs and the catcher's are all fake.  Legalize some kind of simple electronic system between pitcher and catcher.  Use the rotating advertising boards behind the plate - fastball is Ollies Bargain Outlet, curve is Verizon (but keep having the catcher give fake signs). Have the catcher or pitching coach use a little handheld device that controls seemingly innocuous lights in the pressbox that would indicate pitches.

This is really a rules change and harsh punishments about not wanting to have to really try hard to avoid sign stealing.  I think you assume everyone is stealing your signs all the time, so you need to come up with a different and better approach.

Looking back on this it seems a little silly that the baseball world is all in an outrage because someone broke their kindergarten-level communications encryption system.

I think every team in baseball is going to be using more complicated sign systems, now.

I think you're missing the point though - the reason pitchers are so upset is that they were part of something they weren't even aware they were participating in. Sign stealing and tipping has always been part of the game - I don't think anyone has a problem with that. Teams have always done things to counter that since the beginning of the game.

What people have a problem with is when a zoom lens that can magnify the image of a catcher's crotch in real time to a monitor in the dugout is being used to get a very substantial advantage. Technology is being used to relay that information quicker and more discreetly than any human being on the field could. You're competing against a computer system. A few of the pitchers who have spoke about the issue have said they'd rather face someone on steroids than someone who knows what pitch is always coming.

Sure, you can say that it is pretty silly that teams use such basic sign systems. But, let's not place the blame on the victims here. It's like asking why someone who got mugged was walking around at that time of night or something.

[LookinUp]

1 hour ago, DrungoHazewood said:

Looking back on this it seems a little silly that the baseball world is all in an outrage because someone broke their kindergarten-level communications encryption system.

I agree with the rest of your post, but disagree with this conclusion. First, there was a written rule against these actions, at least at some point during the process. So everyone who broke the written rule deserves the outrage. 

Second, while it's naive to think that teams in all sports aren't looking for an edge, it's also fact that these particular activities went far beyond the norm of what was expected or accepted. Real time electronic surveillance is a game changer.

[DrungoHazewood]

21 hours ago, Mr. Chewbacca Jr. said:

Sure, you can say that it is pretty silly that teams use such basic sign systems. But, let's not place the blame on the victims here. It's like asking why someone who got mugged was walking around at that time of night or something.

I think it's more like using 1234 or your birthday as your ATM pin, and being outraged that someone stole everything out of your bank account.  It was illegal and shouldn't have happened, but c'mon, at least try a little harder to protect yourself.

[DrungoHazewood]

21 hours ago, LookinUp said:

I agree with the rest of your post, but disagree with this conclusion. First, there was a written rule against these actions, at least at some point during the process. So everyone who broke the written rule deserves the outrage. 

Second, while it's naive to think that teams in all sports aren't looking for an edge, it's also fact that these particular activities went far beyond the norm of what was expected or accepted. Real time electronic surveillance is a game changer.

It is a game changer, so that's why teams should have been extra vigilant.  One is a fastball, two is a curve is taking trust to a naïve level.

[24fps]

37 minutes ago, DrungoHazewood said:

It is a game changer, so that's why teams should have been extra vigilant.  One is a fastball, two is a curve is taking trust to a naïve level.

Every visiting team should expect elaborate, technology enhanced methods of eavesdropping as the norm in every stadium where they play?  If that's not taking paranoia to an extreme level, then it should be made so.

[LookinUp]

43 minutes ago, DrungoHazewood said:

It is a game changer, so that's why teams should have been extra vigilant.  One is a fastball, two is a curve is taking trust to a naïve level.

You can't call teams naive if the only real solution to prevent it requires more (e.g., electronic) than has ever been historically done. Remember, we're in place where people are trying to speed up the game. Mound visits by catchers are limited. The idea that you have an extra person in the stands, for example, is completely untenable without electronic support (and the fact that person would eventually be identified and surveiled as well). And catchers already have alternative signals (e.g., hand on knee, fixing helmet). They've been doing that stuff forever from at least the college level up. 

This is all manageable with people on base, but to have to perpetually use "alternative" coding systems to prevent real-time spying is absurd both practically and from a spirit of the game perspective. It would be like allowing the opposing team to mic up the offensive coordinator in football so they know every play that's coming before it comes. Just because computers allow people to do that, doesn't mean it should be in any way allowable or accepted.

[Mr. Chewbacca Jr.]

2 hours ago, DrungoHazewood said:

I think it's more like using 1234 or your birthday as your ATM pin, and being outraged that someone stole everything out of your bank account.  It was illegal and shouldn't have happened, but c'mon, at least try a little harder to protect yourself.

I understand what you're saying. But, do we know for sure the signs were that straightforward? Could they have looked at previous tape, figured out the sign code, and then easily relay it to the batter in future matchups?

 

[DrungoHazewood]

1 hour ago, LookinUp said:

You can't call teams naive if the only real solution to prevent it requires more (e.g., electronic) than has ever been historically done. Remember, we're in place where people are trying to speed up the game. Mound visits by catchers are limited. The idea that you have an extra person in the stands, for example, is completely untenable without electronic support (and the fact that person would eventually be identified and surveiled as well). And catchers already have alternative signals (e.g., hand on knee, fixing helmet). They've been doing that stuff forever from at least the college level up. 

This is all manageable with people on base, but to have to perpetually use "alternative" coding systems to prevent real-time spying is absurd both practically and from a spirit of the game perspective. It would be like allowing the opposing team to mic up the offensive coordinator in football so they know every play that's coming before it comes. Just because computers allow people to do that, doesn't mean it should be in any way allowable or accepted.

"I'm going to put down one finger and you're going to throw a fastball.  But if the other team peeks and figures that out I'm going to lose my @#$%!!"

[DrungoHazewood]

1 hour ago, Mr. Chewbacca Jr. said:

I understand what you're saying. But, do we know for sure the signs were that straightforward? Could they have looked at previous tape, figured out the sign code, and then easily relay it to the batter in future matchups?

 

I don't know.  Just a feeling that people are all up in a tizzy because it would be annoying to change what's been standard since 1872.

[LookinUp]

7 minutes ago, DrungoHazewood said:

"I'm going to put down one finger and you're going to throw a fastball.  But if the other team peeks and figures that out I'm going to lose my @#$%!!"

Interesting use of quotation marks.

[Frobby]

Roch seems annoyed that these questions were asked.  

A local television “personality,” and I’m using that term because I don’t know him and don’t know whether he has a reporting background, asked back-to-back questions relating to the Astros cheating scandal. Though teams have been instructed to avoid the topic.

“Frankly, we were asked not to comment,” Elias said. “I’m the general manager of another organization right now and that’s the most important thing. It wouldn’t be appropriate for me to talk about something going on with another team.

“That said, and I’ve said this in the past, in my position with the Astros I was in charge of the minor leagues and international scouting and the draft, and that’s where my focus was and I’ll leave it at that for now. But we did a tremendous job in those areas there. I don’t think what’s going on detracts from that work, and that type of expertise is going to be what’s important to the Orioles right now in our rebuild.

“But yeah, it’s tough to watch. I’m glad it seems like an area the league is rectifying and doing a good job with, and I think that’s for the best.”

Elias also fielded the next one in the same smooth manner as Iglesias at shortstop.

Can he assure fans that those practices weren’t brought over to Baltimore?

“Like I said, I’m not going to get into in-depth commenting on the topic, but we’re going to do things the right way with the Orioles. I can assure everyone of that,” Elias replied.

“We want to win the right way and we’re making sure that’s the way we build the organization.”

Fans were allowed to submit questions during Elias’ speech and he handled another one that was a bit more subtle but touched on the same subject.

“Even though it’s someplace I used to work, it’s tough for me as a GM of the Orioles to comment on something that’s going on with another franchise right now,” he said. “It wouldn’t be appropriate. But we are very focused here on having a great culture. We want to win the right way with the right people.

“We’ve brought in so many new people to this organization and kept a lot of really good ones who have been a big part of this organization and I love the blend that we have right now, the attitude up and down the coaching staffs in the minor leagues and just all across the organization, and it’s so energizing. There are so many who left good jobs with other teams to come join this effort and rebuild the Baltimore Orioles, and we’re going to do it the right way.”

https://www.masnsports.com/school-of-roch/2020/01/leftovers-from-shorebirds-hot-stove-banquet.html#But 

 

[24fps]

39 minutes ago, Frobby said:

Roch seems annoyed that these questions were asked.  

 

 

I think it's refreshing that the first question was not only asked, but followed up on.  I would prefer that reporters (whether their credentials meet Roch's standard or not) err on the side of too tough rather than too soft.  I'm not a fan of "gotcha" journalism, but the press has no obligation to respect MLB's instructions to teams about ongoing matters and that's the way it should be.  It's also perfectly reasonable to try and get Elias on the record about this issue even though it looks like he had no involvement.

[Frobby]

1 minute ago, 24fps said:

I think it's refreshing that the first question was not only asked, but followed up on.  I would prefer that reporters (whether their credentials meet Roch's standard or not) err on the side of too tough rather than too soft.  I'm not a fan of "gotcha" journalism, but the press has no obligation to respect MLB's instructions to teams about ongoing matters and that's the way it should be.  It's also perfectly reasonable to try and get Elias on the record about this issue even though it looks like he had no involvement.

Agreed.    It’s annoying when nobody asks the tough questions.