RANT: It's not even November Yet and...

[hoosiers]

I'm not whining about players. I'm ranting about a fundamental problem with MLB.

Do you really expect people to listen to the rant in a year the Mets and Yankees both miss the playoffs? At the same time, speculation is that the Marlins and Rays could both be pre-season favorites next year to win their respective divisions.

The Rays were bad for a long time, but the fact is that a team with top five draft picks for a five year period should easily be able to sew the seeds of a very competitive future team.

While the NYY and BoSox spend a lot of $ on the international front, it was the Oakland As with the biggest signing this year.

There is no doubt the landscape is tilted against several teams like Pittsburgh, Baltimore and KC, but the Os have too much work to do to right their own ship before I worry about the competitive advantage of the BoSox or NYY.

A well-run Baltimore organization with a packed Camden Yards and appropriate MASN TV $ could probably increase revenues (and player and player development costs) over $40M from where we are today. At that point, the disparity with the BoSox would be significantly less than today.

[Greg Pappas]

Do you really expect people to listen to the rant in a year the Mets and Yankees both miss the playoffs? At the same time, speculation is that the Marlins and Rays could both be pre-season favorites next year to win their respective divisions.

The Rays were bad for a long time, but the fact is that a team with top five draft picks for a five year period should easily be able to sew the seeds of a very competitive future team.

While the NYY and BoSox spend a lot of $ on the international front, it was the Oakland As with the biggest signing this year.

There is no doubt the landscape is tilted against several teams like Pittsburgh, Baltimore and KC, but the Os have too much work to do to right their own ship before I worry about the competitive advantage of the BoSox or NYY.

A well-run Baltimore organization with a packed Camden Yards and appropriate MASN TV $ could probably increase revenues (and player and player development costs) over $40M from where we are today. At that point, the disparity with the BoSox would be significantly less than today.

You acknowledge that there is a disparity... and that is the gist of his disenchantment. Rant is a strong word... were it a true rant, I would've moved it.

The fact that the teams in MLB must go about trying to win with less ammunition than others is the general point. You're right that there is an inherent advantage in drafting high all the time, but we'd just like to see a more level playing field, rather than have to worry about who has what advantage.

Your points are certainly valid however.

[frankpembleton]

I find it funny when people say they "feel sorry" for the Royals. I mean, seriously, we are Orioles fans. We have it THE WORST in Major League Baseball.

We have:

-Arguably the worst owner in professional sports.

-The two (by far) highest revenue generating teams in MLB in our same division.

-The hardest climb out of the cellar in professional sports.

-A stadium that is constantly overrun by bandwagon fans of our most hated rivals.

-3 teams with stocked minor league systems in our division.

I don't mean to come off as completely negative. I applaud the Bedard and Tejada trades - certainly good, forward-thinking moves. I like Joe Jordan's draft picks. We are just still so far behind, and it's hard to tell if we made any progress relative to the rest of the AL east.

The Orioles are the ultimate underdog. Much moreso than the Cubs or Red Sox ever were. That's the one thing I rally around. If we do win it all some day (which just seems so very far off at this point) it will undoubtedly be my favorite sporting moment ever. I love the Ravens as much as I love the Orioles - but another Super Bowl championship is so much more likely than the Orioles winning a World Series.

[LookinUp]

Do you really expect people to listen to the rant in a year the Mets and Yankees both miss the playoffs? At the same time, speculation is that the Marlins and Rays could both be pre-season favorites next year to win their respective divisions.

The Rays were bad for a long time, but the fact is that a team with top five draft picks for a five year period should easily be able to sew the seeds of a very competitive future team.

While the NYY and BoSox spend a lot of $ on the international front, it was the Oakland As with the biggest signing this year.

There is no doubt the landscape is tilted against several teams like Pittsburgh, Baltimore and KC, but the Os have too much work to do to right their own ship before I worry about the competitive advantage of the BoSox or NYY.

A well-run Baltimore organization with a packed Camden Yards and appropriate MASN TV $ could probably increase revenues (and player and player development costs) over $40M from where we are today. At that point, the disparity with the BoSox would be significantly less than today.

I don't disagree with a word of this, but I think you've just cemented my argument.

Do we really want a system where it takes a long run of terribleness (good word ) to be able to compete? Do we want teams like the Marlins to "buy" a winner only to sell those players shortly thereafter? Could any of those teams you listed compete with the Yanks and Sox every year for a long period of time? I mean within division, not in a 5 or 7 game series. I say the most likely answer is that, while not impossible, it's extremely hard to do.

You're right, there's no doubt the landscape is tilted against several teams. This is fundamentally what needs to be fixed. One year of both New York teams missing the playoffs isn't going to change that. I'm sure one or both will be in next year. Of course, Boston, two teams from LA and two more from Chicago were in the playoffs this year. That's 7 of 8 playoff teams with big market advantages. I'm sure money had nothing to do with it. :rolleyestf: [EDIT: PHILLY AND ARIZONA PLAYED, SO 6 OF 8.] I'm guessing this is all a result of the last CBA. I don't know specifics but that clearly seems to be the case.

BTW, when I left this board, I went to the amature draft board. Notice the BA mock draft thread. In there they start talking about how Boston spent so much on draft prospects.

It's starting to get worse guys. It won't stop until they change the rules.

[geschinger]

Do we really want a system where it takes a long run of terribleness (good word ) to be able to compete? Do we want teams like the Marlins to "buy" a winner only to sell those players shortly thereafter? Could any of those teams you listed compete with the Yanks and Sox every year for a long period of time? I mean within division, not in a 5 or 7 game series. I say the most likely answer is that, while not impossible, it's extremely hard to do.

I believe a team like Tampa Bay can compete for a long period of time if they are willing to spend a moderate amount of money. I think it's very possible to build a consistent long term winner in the 80-100m range if you are willing to forgo sentimentality in favor of the harsh reality of every move being made based on what is best for the franchise.

It may take several years to build the foundation but once you do have it you can build and recycle. Sign one or two of the better players developed to an extnesion but also be willing to trade one or two of the better players developed for more talent to keep the pipeline fresh. You have to be willing to say sayonara to some popular players while they are still performing to refresh the talent level of the organization and keep payroll in range. There is no reason why Tampa can't be a winner for the next decade if they are willing to spend in the 80-100m range and willing to make hard decisions w/some of their more popular players.

[Satyr3206]

I believe a team like Tampa Bay can compete for a long period of time if they are willing to spend a moderate amount of money. I think it's very possible to build a consistent long term winner in the 80-100m range if you are willing to forgo sentimentality in favor of the harsh reality of every move being made based on what is best for the franchise.

It may take several years to build the foundation but once you do have it you can build and recycle. Sign one or two of the better players developed to an extnesion but also be willing to trade one or two of the better players developed for more talent to keep the pipeline fresh. You have to be willing to say sayonara to some popular players while they are still performing to refresh the talent level of the organization and keep payroll in range. There is no reason why Tampa can't be a winner for the next decade if they are willing to spend in the 80-100m range and willing to make hard decisions w/some of their more popular players.

That's EXACTLY how the Orioles should do it.

Do some teams have financial advantages? Yes

Does that mean we throw in the towel? No

Mid Payroll teams can consistently compete if you follow the above blueprint. Look at the funny part about the Yanks and all of their money. They've spent around 1.6 Billion since their last WS Title.

[Miller192]

I think MLB should keep the luxury tax in the division. Once the Yankees get outbid for a FA with another team using their money.....that will change things.

[Greg Pappas]

That's EXACTLY how the Orioles should do it.

Do some teams have financial advantages? Yes

Does that mean we throw in the towel? No

Mid Payroll teams can consistently compete if you follow the above blueprint. Look at the funny part about the Yanks and all of their money. They've spent around 1.6 Billion since their last WS Title.

No one mentioned throwing in the towel...

[Satyr3206]

No one mentioned throwing in the towel...

I know. I've just been getting that vibe from some other threads about the Orioles being in the AL East, other teams have so much money, etc etc

I personally think being in the East is a positive. If you can get to the playoffs from the East you have a very good chance of advancing. And it would be sooooooooo sweet to see the Red Sox or Yanks staying home while we were in the playoffs. If the Rays can do it................

[LookinUp]

I believe a team like Tampa Bay can compete for a long period of time if they are willing to spend a moderate amount of money. I think it's very possible to build a consistent long term winner in the 80-100m range if you are willing to forgo sentimentality in favor of the harsh reality of every move being made based on what is best for the franchise.

It may take several years to build the foundation but once you do have it you can build and recycle. Sign one or two of the better players developed to an extnesion but also be willing to trade one or two of the better players developed for more talent to keep the pipeline fresh. You have to be willing to say sayonara to some popular players while they are still performing to refresh the talent level of the organization and keep payroll in range. There is no reason why Tampa can't be a winner for the next decade if they are willing to spend in the 80-100m range and willing to make hard decisions w/some of their more popular players.

Yes, there's clearly a model for doing this. However, the Tampa model isn't it. That model was one that married incredible incompetence at the major league level with incredible competence/timing at the minor league and player acquisition levels. Most teams simply won't end up with several top overall picks in a short period of time.

The model is really what the Twins and A's have done, except you'd lock up the Tejada's, Giambi's and Santana's before they hit the market while also maximizing the value you get for those players you don't keep.

The problem with that model is any team can do it. The Yankees and Sox can do it while continuing to have the financial advantage with everything else. That's the bottom line, and that's what really needs to be fixed.

[Intimidator301]

No one mentioned throwing in the towel...

I still root for this team, and bleed orange and black, and while I'm not throwing in the towel, I feel like I am holding the white flag in my hand.

Its just getting harder and harder to go into every year with the hoping for atleast a .500 season mentality. I used to have hopes for maybe a 3rd place finish, but with the Rays now, its really between 4th and 5th place.

And like the OP said, we're usually out of the running before the season, thanks to the lack of ability to have a chance at FA.

Then I read a story that states the players union will pressure the likes of Sabathia and Tex to take the money. The title of the article was something like, Financial crisis bodes well for the Yankees or something like that. Ill try and fnd it again.

[LookinUp]

For the record, I'm not throwing in the towell either. I do think that the Orioles have the financial wherewithal to compete...they just need to be well run for many years in a row.

I just see an imbalance issue that's getting worse, not better, and I see a league that defines success in terms of how much money the owners make, not whether the fans get a winner. I do believe that the league is looking out for the owners of KC, etc. while they're not looking out for the fans in KC or Baltimore. That's the problem; but in sports, that's a fundamental misunderstanding of your marketplace.

[Satyr3206]

I still root for this team, and bleed orange and black, and while I'm not throwing in the towel, I feel like I am holding the white flag in my hand.

Its just getting harder and harder to go into every year with the hoping for atleast a .500 season mentality. I used to have hopes for maybe a 3rd place finish, but with the Rays now, its really between 4th and 5th place.

And like the OP said, we're usually out of the running before the season, thanks to the lack of ability to have a chance at FA.

Then I read a story that states the players union will pressure the likes of Sabathia and Tex to take the money. The title of the article was something like, Financial crisis bodes well for the Yankees or something like that. Ill try and fnd it again.

OK lets use your projection. If the O's continue to come in 4th or 5th they will probably be drafting in the top 10 every year. Considering the last 2 drafts that should be 2 ML quality players every year with a All Star every third year or so. That will improve the team dramatically right there. Now if they would stop signing the mid to lower level free agents we could keep the draft picks.

The Orioles problem hasn't been signing FA's. It's been signing the wrong FA's.

I am very excited about the Farm System. In a few years we should have a mostly home grown starting staff and a surplus of arms to trade. A FA signing is to plug holes the system can't fill at that moment.

The bottom line is you can build completely through the system it just takes longer.

[geschinger]

Yes, there's clearly a model for doing this. However, the Tampa model isn't it. That model was one that married incredible incompetence at the major league level with incredible competence/timing at the minor league and player acquisition levels. Most teams simply won't end up with several top overall picks in a short period of time.

The model is really what the Twins and A's have done, except you'd lock up the Tejada's, Giambi's and Santana's before they hit the market while also maximizing the value you get for those players you don't keep.

The problem with that model is any team can do it. The Yankees and Sox can do it while continuing to have the financial advantage with everything else. That's the bottom line, and that's what really needs to be fixed.

We do need real revenue sharing but in the current system it's still possible to compete w/o spending like the Yankees or Sox. Having the top pick overall a couple of times has certainly helped but is not a prerequisite to accomplish what the Rays accomplished. Their system is loaded even though only a couple of those players were chosen at the very top of the draft. Hiring Andrew Friedman, a innovative and brilliant young GM is why the franchise is now successful and they'd be successful even if they didn't pick #1 over all a couple of times over the last 5-6 years.

[Intimidator301]

OK lets use your projection. If the O's continue to come in 4th or 5th they will probably be drafting in the top 10 every year. Considering the last 2 drafts that should be 2 ML quality players every year with a All Star every third year or so. That will improve the team dramatically right there. Now if they would stop signing the mid to lower level free agents we could keep the draft picks.

The Orioles problem hasn't been signing FA's. It's been signing the wrong FA's.

I am very excited about the Farm System. In a few years we should have a mostly home grown starting staff and a surplus of arms to trade. A FA signing is to plug holes the system can't fill at that moment.

The bottom line is you can build completely through the system it just takes longer.

Yes, we will draft high, but that doesn't guarantee success. The Royal and Pirates have been drafting in the top 10 for the better part of the last 10 years, and have nothing to show for it, other then having to trade off guys before they get too expensive.

The Rays have been lucky in that Upton, Longoria, Crawford, and it seems Price have all turned out to be very good ML players. I have hopes that Wieters and Matusz will also, but neither have even played a ML game yet.

And as its been stated before, teams like the Red Sox can spend a ton, and their farm system is still a machine. When was the last time they picked in the top 10 or 15? And they still have the likes of Ellsbury, Pedroia, Lowrie, Lester, Papelbon, and Bucholtz and Lars Anderson on the way. Its sickening.

I want to share your optimism, but when and how do we catch up with that?