Rutschman: Let’s Make a Deal

[wildcard]

16 minutes ago, Can_of_corn said:

Ryan Braun spent his entire 14 year career with them.

 

That contract was signed before Stearns.

 

 

[Frobby]

9 minutes ago, Can_of_corn said:

But you can't trade outfielders for pitching and say they are following the Rays' model.  That's the Astros' model again.

You keep combining the two.

The idea that there is one model of some other team to be slavishly followed is fallacious to begin with.

That said, there’s this misperception that Tampa always relies heavily (and almost exclusively) on home grown pitching.  This year’s team certainly belies that.  If you look at Tampa’s top 12 pitchers in IP, only two were drafted by the Rays.  Six were acquired in trades and four were free agent signings.   Some of the trades involved position players, some involved other pitchers.   

[wildcard]

12 minutes ago, Can_of_corn said:

Sure it could.  But the odds are pretty long that enough of those guys will pan out.  I'm also assuming Wildcard would be in favor of flipping Means, Tampa style.

I'm thinking Grayson is going to be part of a six man staff. 

I think Means will be with the O's for at least two more years.  Than they will talk extension but the contract terms will determine if he stays or goes.  Good starting pitching is hard to find.

[wildcard]

2 minutes ago, Frobby said:

The idea that there is one model of some other team to be slavishly followed is fallacious to begin with.

That said, there’s this misperception that Tampa always relies heavily (and almost exclusively) on home grown pitching.  This year’s team certainly belies that.  If you look at Tampa’s top 12 pitchers in IP, only two were drafted by the Rays.  Six were acquired in trades and four were free agent signings.   Some of the trades involved position players, some involved other pitchers.   

Where did you get that idea?

[Can_of_corn]

1 minute ago, Frobby said:

The idea that there is one model of some other team to be slavishly followed is fallacious to begin with.

That said, there’s this misperception that Tampa always relies heavily (and almost exclusively) on home grown pitching.  This year’s team certainly belies that.  If you look at Tampa’s top 12 pitchers in IP, only two were drafted by the Rays.  Six were acquired in trades and four were free agent signings.   Some of the trades involved position players, some involved other pitchers.   

Sure but not guys in year six (Cole), year 12 (Verlander) or year 16 (Greinke).

[RZNJ]

12 minutes ago, Moose Milligan said:

I think what CoC is saying is that it's an outlier.  

You and Sportsguy are always telling me what Corn really meant.  Thank you. lol

[Can_of_corn]

Just now, RZNJ said:

You and Sportsguy are always telling me what Corn really meant.  Thank you. lol

Well if three different people feel a need to explain something to you...

[Sports Guy]

13 minutes ago, LTO's said:

Well that's because they want to have as many cheap, controllable options as possible to suppress their payroll. The Orioles will want that as well but I think they will have much more flexibility there. The key for Elias will be deciding what prospects he trades. Houston gave up what looked like a haul for Verlander but at this point it looks like a steal. 

 Correct.  This is what WC isn’t understanding.  
 

I don’t believe the Angelos family will spend what they should but I do believe they will spend more than Tampa.  What they do want, which is what Tampa does, is a lot of young cheap talent.  But here’s a little secret…EVERYONE wants that.  The Tampa model, if you want to coin that phrase, is just being smart.

The difference between Tampa and a lot of other teams is that those teams can keep their best players if they want and they can sign more players to bigger money deals.  Tampa has to find the cheap, McHugh type guys, hope they do well And then watch them leave.  That’s how they supplement their roster.

So, of course Elias is going to follow a model like Tampa.  Every team is going to follow any model where you place a premium on development and cheap talent well outperforming their cost.  That’s obvious.  

[Just Regular]

40 minutes ago, Moose Milligan said:

"No, you guys, he's following the Astros model."

"Well this is what the Rays did and this is what Elias has done so clearly he's following the Rays model, duh"

Brewers, man, Brewers.

If Elias 12.28.1982 is a valedictorian, Stearns 2.18.1985 is like the guy you were in 9th grade together with, who then skipped and graduated the next year.    For beer and tacos, I like that our guy pitched in the Ivy League instead of writing for the paper.

Stearns enjoyed the regular weak league/division, and never had a stellar farm, but held it to about 90 losses per year while getting it together fast.   I think the Brewers breaking the system of 40-man September pitching maybe had a little to do with moderated rules this year, which is some of why I'm so curious to see how the MLB/MLBPA situate pitching roster rules/carousels for 2022 and on.

The Rays and Brewers have clearly proven over the last few years the pack is stronger than the wolf for throttling hitters.   It doesn't matter if the individuals aren't Sammy Stewart/Zach Britton/nuggets you care about using many years in a row.

https://www.mlb.com/news/milwaukee-brewers-hire-david-stearns-for-gm-c150715602

It produced a top 11 of data points from which to score potential candidates. The No. 1 criteria, Attanasio said, "Has the vision, intelligence and strategic mindset to build the alignment necessary for consistent postseason play."

[Moose Milligan]

1 minute ago, Just Regular said:

Brewers, man, Brewers.

If Elias 12.28.1982 is a valedictorian, Stearns 2.18.1985 is like the guy you were in 9th grade together with, who then skipped and graduated the next year.    For beer and tacos, I like that our guy pitched in the Ivy League instead of writing for the paper.

Stearns enjoyed the regular weak league/division, and never had a stellar farm, but held it to about 90 losses per year while getting it together fast.   I think the Brewers breaking the system of 40-man September pitching maybe had a little to do with moderated rules this year, which is some of why I'm so curious to see how the MLB/MLBPA situate pitching roster rules/carousels for 2022 and on.

The Rays and Brewers have clearly proven over the last few years the pack is stronger than the wolf for throttling hitters.

https://www.mlb.com/news/milwaukee-brewers-hire-david-stearns-for-gm-c150715602

It produced a top 11 of data points from which to score potential candidates. The No. 1 criteria, Attanasio said, "Has the vision, intelligence and strategic mindset to build the alignment necessary for consistent postseason play."

Clearly you didn't read the last line.

This whole "model" conversation is stupid.  

[Just Regular]

4 minutes ago, Moose Milligan said:

Clearly you didn't read the last line.

This whole "model" conversation is stupid.  

Just kidding around.  Whether you start from Theo, Friedman/Wall Street or Luhnow/McKinsey, everybody's practicing the art of reducing run creation and prevention to its essentials (pitches of attributes X, barrel proficiency of Y, OAA), then with a mix of do you care more about just plain WAR, or $$$/WAR?

Well, except maybe the Rockies.

 

[wildcard]

1 hour ago, Moose Milligan said:

Clearly you didn't read the last line.

This whole "model" conversation is stupid.  

Elias talks about the Tampa model and refers to his time with the Astros.  Stupid or not Elias talks it.

[Can_of_corn]

2 minutes ago, wildcard said:

Elias talks about the Tampa model and refer to his time with the Astros.  Stupid or not Elias talks it.

Right, because Elias is talking in broad general terms to unsophisticated fans.

[Sports Guy]

16 minutes ago, wildcard said:

Elias talks about the Tampa model and refer to his time with the Astros.  Stupid or not Elias talks it.

You take things far too literally.

[OriolesMagic83]

1 hour ago, Frobby said:

The idea that there is one model of some other team to be slavishly followed is fallacious to begin with.

That said, there’s this misperception that Tampa always relies heavily (and almost exclusively) on home grown pitching.  This year’s team certainly belies that.  If you look at Tampa’s top 12 pitchers in IP, only two were drafted by the Rays.  Six were acquired in trades and four were free agent signings.   Some of the trades involved position players, some involved other pitchers.   

That;s surprising.  I always thought that Tampa had developed most of their pitching.  Well the O's will definitely need to supplement their few pitching prospects w/ smart trades and probably cheaper free agents (based on what we have seen so far).