New CBA proposal on draft lottery

[Moose Milligan]

1 minute ago, Sports Guy said:

Have you listened to anything Elias has said the last 4 years?  You have your example in your own backyard.  What else do you need to see?

Ehhh, Elias has his black belt in saying a lot without saying anything at all.  

 

Quote

“We are only going about rebuilding our roster this way because we have to,” Elias said. “This is, in my opinion, the only avenue available to the Baltimore Orioles right now to restore greatness as an organization and a consistent, playoff-caliber team, especially in our division.

“It’s a very difficult thing to endure at the major league level. It’s tough for me on a nightly basis. It’s very tough for (manager) Brandon Hyde and the coaching staff on a nightly basis. It’s tough for the fans. It’s tough for the business side of the organization. It’s tough for the owners, but it’s where we are, and it’s what we have to do, and I think in many ways the Houston Astros in 2011 were in a very similar situation, and it was not only the only realistic path, but it was the right path, and also the quickest path to restoring the team to the playoffs.”

 

I mean...is that a brilliant sales strategy on selling the fanbase on tanking?  I don't really think so. 

[Sports Guy]

5 minutes ago, Moose Milligan said:

Ehhh, Elias has his black belt in saying a lot without saying anything at all.  

 

 

I mean...is that a brilliant sales strategy on selling the fanbase on tanking?  I don't really think so. 

He has made people buy into the idea that this is what needs to be done to compete long term.  That’s been his obvious point from day 1.  
 

That is a sell job because not only is it bs but it’s also cover for ownership who just doesn’t want to spend money.

 

[Pickles]

2 minutes ago, Sports Guy said:

He has made people buy into the idea that this is what needs to be done to compete long term.  That’s been his obvious point from day 1.  
 

That is a sell job because not only is it bs but it’s also cover for ownership who just doesn’t want to spend money.

 

There was no alternative to years of losing when Elias took over.  The die had been cast.

[Moose Milligan]

4 minutes ago, Sports Guy said:

He has made people buy into the idea that this is what needs to be done to compete long term.  That’s been his obvious point from day 1.  
 

That is a sell job because not only is it bs but it’s also cover for ownership who just doesn’t want to spend money.

 

He made people buy into it?  Or do they just happen to agree with him?

 

[Sports Guy]

3 minutes ago, Pickles said:

There was no alternative to years of losing when Elias took over.  The die had been cast.

Wrong.  There were plenty of alternatives and there are certainly alternatives heading into 2022.  
To act is if losing on purpose was and still is the only alternative is a joke.

 

[Sports Guy]

Just now, Moose Milligan said:

He made people buy into it?  Or do they just happen to agree with him?

 

I think most fans don’t possess the baseball acumen to be able to challenge it and come up with their own opinions.

I think those that do (which lets face it, are people on this site and sites like this) see the results of the farm system, see that this has happened with other teams and just go with it. 
 

Back in the 2000s, when this board really took off, we had constant arguments about the direction of the team.  People who were called negative believed they were realists.  People who were positive, where known as lollipoppers. (I’m sure you remember that).  We had lots of arguments and many people thought we were doing things the right way..headed in the right direction, etc…they were wrong..very very wrong.

The point in bringing that up is that when it comes to the Os, fans tend to have orange glasses on and want to believe that everything they do is right.  Even the most intelligent of fans, and again there are a slew of those people on this site, get sucked into these things.

Look at the backlash people get for fighting back to Elias and what he says and does.  People actually think Elias built the Astros or at least that’s the tone of their posts.

For me, everything they are doing at ever level of the organization besides the ML team has been great.  It’s the same stuff many of us has asked been asking for over 20 years.  
 

But what isn’t being done at the ML level is horrible and the fact that people are ok with it and think that this organization is just going to flip some kind of a switch at a moments notice is laughable.

 

[Frobby]

8 minutes ago, Sports Guy said:

Wrong.  There were plenty of alternatives and there are certainly alternatives heading into 2022.  
To act is if losing on purpose was and still is the only alternative is a joke.

 

Definitely not the only alternative.   Quite arguably the best alternative.   Still waiting to see what else the team will do once the lockout ends and transactions can occur.   I’m not expecting high profile signings or trades, but there could be things that are smaller but meaningful.   

[Sports Guy]

Just now, Frobby said:

Definitely not the only alternative.   Quite arguably the best alternative.   Still waiting to see what else the team will do once the lockout ends and transactions can occur.   I’m not expecting high profile signings or trades, but there could be things that are smaller but meaningful.   

Agreed.  There could be and if they make moves that should truly make the team much better, that’s awesome.  It’s what they should be doing.  
 

[Pickles]

12 minutes ago, Frobby said:

Definitely not the only alternative.   Quite arguably the best alternative.   Still waiting to see what else the team will do once the lockout ends and transactions can occur.   I’m not expecting high profile signings or trades, but there could be things that are smaller but meaningful.   

I'm sorry, but there was NO WAY forward- "rebuilding" or not- that sees the Orioles NOT losing a ton of games moving forward from Elias' hire.

The decisions which made that INESCAPABLE had been made before he arrived.

You could argue that "rebuilding" could have been quicker, etc.  You can't argue that losing wasn't inevitable- not in good faith.

[Sports Guy]

3 minutes ago, Pickles said:

I'm sorry, but there was NO WAY forward- "rebuilding" or not- that sees the Orioles NOT losing a ton of games moving forward from Elias' hire.

The decisions which made that INESCAPABLE had been made before he arrived.

You could argue that "rebuilding" could have been quicker, etc.  You can't argue that losing wasn't inevitable- not in good faith.

Again this isn’t true.  And even if it was true, it’s not a true statement relating to 2022. (I would argue 2021 as well but that’s a bit tougher because of 2020 COVID bs)

[interloper]

Lottery for top 3 won't effect tanking in the slightest. 

[DrungoHazewood]

2 hours ago, Sports Guy said:

I think teams are taking for a higher pick/higher draft pool and, mainly, to save money.

Its funny when people act as if it’s some righteous strategy and the only way you can contend again.  It’s just completely foolish and the sale jobs being done by these organizations are absolutely brilliant.  I’m just surprised so many smart people fall for it.

So if you were in charge you'd spend the extra $75M a year to win 72 games with players who have no future on the next good Orioles team?

[DrungoHazewood]

40 minutes ago, Sports Guy said:

The point in bringing that up is that when it comes to the Os, fans tend to have orange glasses on and want to believe that everything they do is right.  Even the most intelligent of fans, and again there are a slew of those people on this site, get sucked into these things.

I think most people believe that the front office is doing what they think is in the best interests of the team within the constraints that the ownership group levies on them.

[Sports Guy]

1 minute ago, DrungoHazewood said:

So if you were in charge you'd spend the extra $75M a year to win 72 games with players who have no future on the next good Orioles team?

You don’t need to spend anywhere near that money.  The team doesn’t even have to have a 75M payroll to get into the 70s and yes, I think they should have a payroll approaching that (maybe not even that high to be honest) to win 75ish games.

The difference between then and now is that they are actually doing things correctly at the other levels and have a lot of cheap, top talent ready to come up.  Couple the young talent and the right free agents/trades and you can win quickly.

[interloper]

Just now, DrungoHazewood said:

I think most people believe that the front office is doing what they think is in the best interests of the team within the constraints that the ownership group levies on them.

Hard to argue with the progress that's been made organizationally in 3 years. People can argue about the current on-field product if they like, and that's understandable.