Can't believe the Orioles are going to Arbitration with Means and Mancini

[Frobby]

4 minutes ago, Tony-OH said:

You are missing the point of this entire thread. Going to arbitration with two of your better players over $1.1 million when you have the lowest payroll in baseball is embarrassing and gives more awful optics across baseball and their fans. 

Sure, arbitration happens all across baseball and the Orioles typically are very good at judging the market, but it should not be too hard to make agreements when $1.1 million is involved. 

It makes the Orioles look bad and it should. 

 

You do understand that I was responding to wildcard, who feels that Mancini is being ungrateful by not accepting the Orioles’ offer, right?   

However, I flat out disagree with you.   I don’t think there’s anything embarrassing about it.   I do realize that some people will side with the players and try to cast this as the O’s being cheap.   Then there are people like wildcard who feel the player is being greedy and ungrateful.   
 

[wildcard]

7 minutes ago, Frobby said:

His case to stay is pretty weak, and I don’t think this affects it.   If we didn’t have Mountcastle, he’d have a much stronger case.   

His case to stay is a lot better if he has a 900 OPS and the team is showing real progress this season.  Might even get him a mid season  10m contract to stay next season.   If the team is performing better and the fans are coming back to Camden.  That could be worth 10m.

[Frobby]

1 minute ago, wildcard said:

His case to stay is a lot better if he has a 900 OPS and the team is showing real progress this season.  Might even get him a mid season  10m contract to stay next season.   If the team is performing better and the fans are coming back to Camden.  That could be worth 10m.

So let’s say he puts up a .900 OPS and the team is showing real improvement.   Do you think the O’s decision on whether to extend him is going to be influenced by the fact that he took them to arbitration?   I don’t.  

[wildcard]

11 minutes ago, Frobby said:

So let’s say he puts up a .900 OPS and the team is showing real improvement.   Do you think the O’s decision on whether to extend him is going to be influenced by the fact that he took them to arbitration?   I don’t.  

People are people and they have memories.   Fighting with the owner and front office over money certainly does not help Mancini stay with the O's.

[maybenxtyr]

36 minutes ago, wildcard said:

His case to stay is a lot better if he has a 900 OPS and the team is showing real progress this season.  Might even get him a mid season  10m contract to stay next season.   If the team is performing better and the fans are coming back to Camden.  That could be worth 10m.

There's no reason whatsoever for the Orioles to extend him. 

[Just Regular]

MASN last night uploaded to YouTube one of the 20-minute videos of Elias with the gaggle, and he had a few Arb questions.   He made MLB proud, had all the talking points about how each case affects guys on other teams, next year's guys, the year after that's guys, etc, etc.

Its too depressing a thought to google for the details, but in the new CBA do the Clubs still have that move we did once on Miguel Gonzalez where you can un-pay a big percentage of a tendered player's salary if they are cut in Spring Training by such and such a date?    I am 95% sure that won't be Mancini's fate, but hoo boy if the Angelos Betterment Fund grabs that particular $5 million.   

[Frobby]

3 minutes ago, Just Regular said:

MASN last night uploaded to YouTube one of the 20-minute videos of Elias with the gaggle, and he had a few Arb questions.   He made MLB proud, had all the talking points about how each case affects guys on other teams, next year's guys, the year after that's guys, etc, etc.

Its too depressing a thought to google for the details, but in the new CBA do the Clubs still have that move we did once on Miguel Gonzalez where you can un-pay a big percentage of a tendered player's salary if they are cut in Spring Training by such and such a date?    I am 95% sure that won't be Mancini's fate, but hoo boy if the Angelos Betterment Fund grabs that particular $5 million.   

Under the new CBA, if the two sides agree before arbitration, the player can’t be cut without paying his full salary.  But if the case actually goes to arbitration, then the old rules apply and the player can be cut by a certain date and only get paid 25% (I think that’s the number). So, the player has a strong incentive to settle and lock in his salary.   

I’m not sure how it’s working this year, since as I understand it, some of the arbitration hearings may not take place until after the regular season begins.   I don’t know what happens when you cut a guy who hasn’t had his hearing yet.  
 

[rm5678]

9 minutes ago, Just Regular said:

MASN last night uploaded to YouTube one of the 20-minute videos of Elias with the gaggle, and he had a few Arb questions.   He made MLB proud, had all the talking points about how each case affects guys on other teams, next year's guys, the year after that's guys, etc, etc.

Its too depressing a thought to google for the details, but in the new CBA do the Clubs still have that move we did once on Miguel Gonzalez where you can un-pay a big percentage of a tendered player's salary if they are cut in Spring Training by such and such a date?    I am 95% sure that won't be Mancini's fate, but hoo boy if the Angelos Betterment Fund grabs that particular $5 million.   

An interesting part of that press conference was when Dan Connolly asked Elias if Mancini will be on the opening day roster and Elias didn't answer it either way.

[Tony-OH]

1 hour ago, Frobby said:

You do understand that I was responding to wildcard, who feels that Mancini is being ungrateful by not accepting the Orioles’ offer, right?   

However, I flat out disagree with you.   I don’t think there’s anything embarrassing about it.   I do realize that some people will side with the players and try to cast this as the O’s being cheap.   Then there are people like wildcard who feel the player is being greedy and ungrateful.   
 

Well, you are certainly allowed your opinion, but I don't understand how anyone thinks going to arbitration with your two home grown players over a combined $1.1 million when you have the smallest payroll in baseball is not embarrassing for the club.

Do I think Mancini is worth $8 million, no, but I didn't think he was worth the Orioles offer either. But at the end of the day, it's chump change to the Orioles and trying to nickel and dime their home grown players sends a bad message to all.

I wonder if the team will cut back to one ply toilet paper in the lockram. It's probably a few bucks cheaper.

 

[Frobby]

12 minutes ago, Tony-OH said:

Well, you are certainly allowed your opinion, but I don't understand how anyone thinks going to arbitration with your two home grown players over a combined $1.1 million when you have the smallest payroll in baseball is not embarrassing for the club.

Do I think Mancini is worth $8 million, no, but I didn't think he was worth the Orioles offer either. But at the end of the day, it's chump change to the Orioles and trying to nickel and dime their home grown players sends a bad message to all.

I wonder if the team will cut back to one ply toilet paper in the lockram. It's probably a few bucks cheaper.

 

The White Sox and Lucas Giolito are going to arbitration over $200,000.   The World Champion Braves are going to arbitration with five of their players who helped them win the World Series, including $250,000 disputes with both Austin Riley and Max Fried and $400,000 with Luke Jackson. Of the 31 cases scheduled for arbitration, ten of them involve a smaller gap than Mancini’s.   So no, I don’t think the Orioles are embarrassing.

 

[seak05]

8 minutes ago, Frobby said:

The White Sox and Lucas Giolito are going to arbitration over $200,000.   The World Champion Braves are going to arbitration with five of their players who helped them win the World Series, including $250,000 disputes with both Austin Riley and Max Fried and $400,000 with Luke Jackson. Of the 31 cases scheduled for arbitration, ten of them involve a smaller gap than Mancini’s.   So no, I don’t think the Orioles are embarrassing.

 

Independent of anything else, the Orioles going to arbitration with Means and Mancini is completely defensible, and not uncommon. But as a cumulative; with the very small payroll, and the lack of announcers on the road etc...it's yet another point of evidence in the Orioles are cheap bastards narrative

[Frobby]

2 minutes ago, seak05 said:

Independent of anything else, the Orioles going to arbitration with Means and Mancini is completely defensible, and not uncommon. But as a cumulative; with the very small payroll, and the lack of announcers on the road etc...it's yet another point of evidence in the Orioles are cheap bastards narrative

I’d feel that way if I thought their offers were cheap.   I definitely don’t feel that’s true with Mancini.   I haven’t studied it as closely as I will, but I’m pretty confident they will win that case.   Means is a closer case.   I hope both cases settle, though Elias claims there won’t be further negotiations.    But, I don’t think it’s particularly embarrassing.   Not sending announcers on road trips?   Now that’s embarassing.

[Frobby]

From Roch:

Left-hander John Means didn’t know immediately after Tuesday’s start whether his agent reached agreement with the Orioles on a 2022 contract before the deadline to exchange salary figures. The final update came much later in the night.

No deal, he learned, and the Orioles would be stay file and trial. A hearing held over a video call will happen during the season.

Means is seeking $3.1 million and the Orioles countered at $2.7 million.

“I’d say I’m disappointed, but I’m pretty confident that that’s what I’m worth and I guess I’m looking forward to it,” Means said.

Trey Mancini’s agent submitted a figure of $8 million and the Orioles offered $7.375 million, which also leads to a hearing.

The longest-tenured player and team leader, and the ace of the rotation, insist they won’t let the process negatively impact their performances. They can separate business from the game.

“I’m definitely not going to be distracted,” Means said. “I’m not too worried about it.”

https://www.masnsports.com/school-of-roch/2022/03/stewart-day-to-day-with-bruised-hand-and-other-notes.html

[Sports Guy]

Does anyone think we should sign Means to a 4 year extension?

Is that something you want to do or do you feel he’s been too injury prone to do one?

[Frobby]

6 minutes ago, Sports Guy said:

Does anyone think we should sign Means to a 4 year extension?

Is that something you want to do or do you feel he’s been too injury prone to do one?

Well, as always, it depends on how much money.   We had that discussion last year and I came up with a figure you said Means would never accept.   He ended up having a pretty good year and I’m sure the price has gone up, despite the fact that he missed some starts and wasn’t as good after MLB cracked down on the sticky stuff.

My offhand thought is I’d probably do it at 4/$27 mm.   Much higher than that and it gets iffy.