Can't believe the Orioles are going to Arbitration with Means and Mancini

[Oriole1940]

As I posted the other day, this team desperately needs a baseball man to run the show, and has for many years now.  Such a man would know how to handle  these  uniquely baseball operations  much better than a lawyer who was used to relatively easy pickens at what he was doing before with the asbestos suits.   Until then I have little hope for much improvement in the teams W/L over the LONG term.  Sure,  some years will show a bit better, and some a bit worse.  

[seak05]

If you extend Means at this point you're buying out 3 years of arbitration. Not sure why you'd do that if you didn't also intend to buy out at least a couple years of free agency

[Can_of_corn]

Just now, Oriole1940 said:

As I posted the other day, this team desperately needs a baseball man to run the show, and has for many years now.  Such a man would know how to handle  these  uniquely baseball operations  much better than a lawyer who was used to relatively easy pickens at what he was doing before with the asbestos suits.   Until then I have little hope for much improvement in the teams W/L over the LONG term.  Sure,  some years will show a bit better, and some a bit worse.  

What teams have a "Baseball man" in the ownership group?

 

[Can_of_corn]

1 minute ago, seak05 said:

If you extend Means at this point you're buying out 3 years of arbitration. Not sure why you'd do that if you didn't also intend to buy out at least a couple years of free agency

You'd be locking in cost.

That'd be it.

[SteveA]

15 minutes ago, Can_of_corn said:

What teams have a "Baseball man" in the ownership group?

 

The Marlins did until a few weeks ago

[Can_of_corn]

1 minute ago, SteveA said:

The Marlins did until a few weeks ago

That's not a ringing endorsement of the concept.

I did see that he sold his ownership stake when he stepped down.

I'd have held onto it.

[OriolesMagic83]

4 hours ago, wildcard said:

People are people and they have memories.   Fighting with the owner and front office over money certainly does not help Mancini stay with the O's.

It's arbitration, it's nothing out of the ordinary.  I think Mancini knows he is gone by the end of the season, hopefully to a winning franchise.

[Tony-OH]

4 hours ago, Sports Guy said:

Does anyone think we should sign Means to a 4 year extension?

Is that something you want to do or do you feel he’s been too injury prone to do one?

I need to see him put a whole season together and not have his annual shoulder issues and second half drop off.

[Sports Guy]

4 minutes ago, Tony-OH said:

I need to see him put a whole season together and not have his annual shoulder issues and second half drop off.

I think I agree with this but you may also be able to use that shoulder injury as a way to get a discount.

In 2019 and 2021, he averaged about 150 IP and was worth 5.5 WAR.  By FG’s formula, he was worth 45M in those 2 years.

If you can get him for like 6/10/12 and a club option for 15M, it may be worth it.  
 

I wouldn’t be upset if they didn’t sign him nor would I be if they did.  I think there’s a very good chance they will need him over the next several years.

[Tony-OH]

1 minute ago, Sports Guy said:

I think I agree with this but you may also be able to use that shoulder injury as a way to get a discount.

In 2019 and 2021, he averaged about 150 IP and was worth 5.5 WAR.  By FG’s formula, he was worth 45M in those 2 years.

If you can get him for like 6/10/12 and a club option for 15M, it may be worth it.  
 

I wouldn’t be upset if they didn’t sign him nor would I be if they did.  I think there’s a very good chance they will need him over the next several years.

BTW, that value is why it's embarrassing for the Orioles to be going to arbitration with him over 400K. He has been a steal. 

I'd just like to see him put a full season together before giving him any kind of extension. By the time he's a free agent he'll be 32 and the Orioles could have his replacement ready. If not, they should be in position financially to resign him.

[Camden_yardbird]

What really bothers me about this is, although these arbitration hearings are about the numbers, Mancini's numbers - his lack thereof in 2020, and probably his drop off in the second half last year - are about his cancer.  The lack of comparative numbers to other players in the same place in their careers, thats about him missing time.

Obviously in almost every other context in employer-employee arbitration this would be illegal, but baseball is a unique job where performance can be measure by multiple metrics.

Something just doesn't sit right for me there. 

[Frobby]

8 hours ago, Camden_yardbird said:

What really bothers me about this is, although these arbitration hearings are about the numbers, Mancini's numbers - his lack thereof in 2020, and probably his drop off in the second half last year - are about his cancer.  The lack of comparative numbers to other players in the same place in their careers, thats about him missing time.

Obviously in almost every other context in employer-employee arbitration this would be illegal, but baseball is a unique job where performance can be measure by multiple metrics.

Something just doesn't sit right for me there. 

There’s tons of players who missed all of a year, or very close to it, to use for comps.  It’s just that the reason for missing time isn’t usually a battle with cancer, it’s some kind of injury.   

[Frobby]

I saw this week that Adrian Houser had his arbitration hearing this week.  For reasons I don’t understand, no decision is expected for several weeks, whereas these decisions used to come out one day after the hearing.    Also, it’s reported that the hearings in the 18 cases are scheduled between now and June 24.   Really?  June 24?   You could have two players with identical stats through last year, who made identical demands this year.   Are the arbitrators really going to be able to ignore that one guy is now the leading candidate for the Cy Young Award and the other is having TJ surgery?   I wonder what’s behind this laconic schedule.

Before John Means got hurt, I’d pulled 20-25 comps to analyze who had the better case.   But his injury just made the exercise seem trivial, so I didn’t bother.   I’ll say this: if Houser gets his $3 mm (vs. Brewers $2.425 mm), then I don’t like the Orioles’ chances of holding Means to $2.7 mm (Means is seeking $3.1 mm).

[Can_of_corn]

12 minutes ago, Frobby said:

I saw this week that Adrian Houser had his arbitration hearing this week.  For reasons I don’t understand, no decision is expected for several weeks, whereas these decisions used to come out one day after the hearing.    Also, it’s reported that the hearings in the 18 cases are scheduled between now and June 24.   Really?  June 24?   You could have two players with identical stats through last year, who made identical demands this year.   Are the arbitrators really going to be able to ignore that one guy is now the leading candidate for the Cy Young Award and the other is having TJ surgery?   I wonder what’s behind this laconic schedule.

Before John Means got hurt, I’d pulled 20-25 comps to analyze who had the better case.   But his injury just made the exercise seem trivial, so I didn’t bother.   I’ll say this: if Houser gets his $3 mm (vs. Brewers $2.425 mm), then I don’t like the Orioles’ chances of holding Means to $2.7 mm (Means is seeking $3.1 mm).

I would hope so.  Doesn't seem like it would be that hard to ignore this season's results.

Who are the arbiters?  They might not even follow the sport during the regular season.

[Natty]

I hate to say it, but Means has not been able to pitch a season without getting hurt. His arbitration value is gone now.

Wasn't Means slated to get 3.2M this year from arbitration?