How close are Grayson and Bradish to a call up?

[wildcard]

I think Elias/Hyde are gauging how far Tyler Wells can go in games.  2 innings?  3? 4?   He can be an opener with a bulk guy behind him like Akin.   

The O's only have Lyles, Zimmerman and Watkins that may be able to go 5 innings.   And that is not certain.   They can't afford to take T Wells out of the rotation right now because they don't have a replacement.    

Bradish is probably being added to the rotation to make 5.   But Grayson isn't ready just yet. Not until he shows he can be effect pitching on 4 days rest.  He has been pitching on 5 days rest so far this season.

 

[Jammer7]

17 hours ago, Tony-OH said:

Under Elias, he was given one legitmate starting pticher in John Means, and two top pitching prospects in Grayson Rodriguez and DL Hall. 

Means is having TJ surgery and Hall hasn't pitched in a minor league game since May of last year. 

So despite all the pampering and lack of pitch counts and rehabbing guys, they don't exactly have a stellar record no do they? 

At the end of the day, Bradish and Rodriguez are in the minors because of controllability concerns and Adley Rutschman has the slowest rehab known to man for a tricep strain for the same reason.

Whether this all works out or not will be known by 2023 or 2024. It's clear to me that Elias has no intention of winning at the major league level for the 4th straight season in his rebuild.

Means was AAA depth, an afterthought, when Elias was hired. He learned a change up, and I believe it was from Chris Holt in Spring Training. Then, he made the team as the last guy in the pen, and blossomed into a starter quickly. No one here saw him coming before his Spring. 

DL and Grayson were nowhere near what they have become since. Raw materials. DL had to clean up some mechanical flaws and gain command. He apparently has done that. Personally, I think DL’s wear and tear as a youth probably had more to do with his health than what he has done as an adult. That, along with trying to throw max velocity too early and too often, especially before the mechanics and body are ready for it.

The plain and simple fact is that pitchers break. They all break. Every organization has that simple truth, and that is why picking position players early in the draft provides more value. It is what it is. It can certainly be argued that their intervention on behalf of these talented pitchers has saved them from more frequent or serious injuries. I cannot say for sure, and neither can you or anyone else on this board. It is a belief of many people smarter than me, a way of doing things supported by their research. We are not privy to it, but I have been told it exists by some excellent knowledgeable people who make a living doing this.

No matter what they do, pitchers will still break at some point. Prevention, or mitigation, is doing the best you can do. At some point, you have to take off the training wheels. I believe Bradish is about to get promoted. 24 AAA starts is a good number, and he has improved greatly since 2021.

Of course he is not trying to win this year. He has said they are not yet in their competitive window. Maximize the value of the players you have up there for now, move them out for what you can get to make room for the studs to come up. Looks like some of those waiver claims are making the most of their opportunities.

Adley is the face of the franchise the day he gets called up. Why take any chance that you have moved him along too quickly? Worst case is that he reaggravates the injury, or makes it worse, and then we’re screwed. Being prudent seems to be an enormously intelligent thing.

I know I’m not changing your mind. You’re dug in. I agree with most, not all, of the things Elias has done. Generally, I see the logic in it. I do think they move pitchers slowly, and it can be frustrating. But it would be more frustrating if they acted irresponsibly and rushed these kids along. And five years later, after their injuries and failures, we move them along for salary relief just like we did with Gausmann. Look at how that turned out. Gaus is the poster boy for why you do what Elias is doing. 

[interloper]

 

[interloper]

 

[Jammer7]

2 hours ago, interloper said:

Don't think he'd be swapped out for Bradish when there's already a rotation hole with Ellis out. But, yes, Tyler really needs a positive outing tonight. The Yankees, however, do not look like the pushovers they did in the first series. 

Alex Wells is my choice as the guy who goes down, that is if Bradish is the starter on Saturday. 

[Can_of_corn]

6 minutes ago, interloper said:

 

Do you think that's a true statement?

[Tony-OH]

11 minutes ago, Jammer7 said:

Means was AAA depth, an afterthought, when Elias was hired. He learned a change up, and I believe it was from Chris Holt in Spring Training. Then, he made the team as the last guy in the pen, and blossomed into a starter quickly. No one here saw him coming before his Spring. 

DL and Grayson were nowhere near what they have become since. Raw materials. DL had to clean up some mechanical flaws and gain command. He apparently has done that. Personally, I think DL’s wear and tear as a youth probably had more to do with his health than what he has done as an adult. That, along with trying to throw max velocity too early and too often, especially before the mechanics and body are ready for it.

The plain and simple fact is that pitchers break. They all break. Every organization has that simple truth, and that is why picking position players early in the draft provides more value. It is what it is. It can certainly be argued that their intervention on behalf of these talented pitchers has saved them from more frequent or serious injuries. I cannot say for sure, and neither can you or anyone else on this board. It is a belief of many people smarter than me, a way of doing things supported by their research. We are not privy to it, but I have been told it exists by some excellent knowledgeable people who make a living doing this.

No matter what they do, pitchers will still break at some point. Prevention, or mitigation, is doing the best you can do. At some point, you have to take off the training wheels. I believe Bradish is about to get promoted. 24 AAA starts is a good number, and he has improved greatly since 2021.

Of course he is not trying to win this year. He has said they are not yet in their competitive window. Maximize the value of the players you have up there for now, move them out for what you can get to make room for the studs to come up. Looks like some of those waiver claims are making the most of their opportunities.

Adley is the face of the franchise the day he gets called up. Why take any chance that you have moved him along too quickly? Worst case is that he reaggravates the injury, or makes it worse, and then we’re screwed. Being prudent seems to be an enormously intelligent thing.

I know I’m not changing your mind. You’re dug in. I agree with most, not all, of the things Elias has done. Generally, I see the logic in it. I do think they move pitchers slowly, and it can be frustrating. But it would be more frustrating if they acted irresponsibly and rushed these kids along. And five years later, after their injuries and failures, we move them along for salary relief just like we did with Gausmann. Look at how that turned out. Gaus is the poster boy for why you do what Elias is doing. 

You're looking for excuse and I'm just providing facts. I get it, you're a Elias disciple and you are ready to do battle with any who dare question your messiah.  

Saying that, I like a lot of things Elias has done to help rebuild this franchise, but until his development methods provide wins at the big league level, they are nothing more than fancy titles and secret methods hidden behind a wall of secrecy for the better good. lol

I hope he's proven right, I really do. But the Orioles are entering their 4th season under him and they're still an embarrassment at the major league level and I see no difference in injuries between the Orioles and other clubs yet they slow pitch all of their pitchers with low pitch counts and a lack of innings.

I thought this would be a transition year for Elias but he appears to be very happy to see this season be another last place, 100 loss fiasco. Obviously there are fans out there like you that have infinite patience and are fine with another pitiful major league performance on the field while better players sit in the minors because of controllability issues.

I get that, and that's your right as a fan to fan how you like, but my patience has run out.

Are there players close like Adley, Rodriguez. Bradish and Stowers that could help out this year, sure. Are there other interesting players in the system, sure. But no matter what, the Orioles really don't care about the fans but focus on the bottom line. Under this ownership and regime, I don't see that changing. 

 

[interloper]

8 minutes ago, Can_of_corn said:

Do you think that's a true statement?

Which one? Do I think Ellis getting injured was the catalyst? Yeah, for sure, to some degree. There's no one else worthy on the 40-man roster. Lowther sucks. Akin and Baumann are staying in the 'pen. Watkins is already here. Ellis was the last line of defense before Elias has to finally dip into the prospect cupboard. Now of course we would be dipping in there at some point Ellis injury or no, but it's going to happen now. 

Do I think anyone pitching well in AAA has put themselves in contention to come up here an pitch? Yes, obviously. We're going to need more than just Bradish and Grayson from AAA this year. If Lowther gets his act together, he'll pitch. If Smith gets his act together, they'd consider adding him to the 40 again. Kremer will be an option again eventually. Etc. 

[Can_of_corn]

Just now, interloper said:

Which one? Do I think Ellis getting injured was the catalyst? Yeah, for sure, to some degree. There's no one else worthy on the 40-man roster. Lowther sucks. Akin and Baumann are staying in the 'pen. Watkins is already here. Ellis was the last line of defense before Elias has to finally dip into the prospect cupboard. Now of course we would be dipping in there at some point Ellis injury or no, but it's going to happen now. 

Do I think anyone pitching well in AAA has put themselves in contention to come up here an pitch? Yes, obviously. We're going to need more than just Bradish and Grayson from AAA this year. If Lowther gets his act together, he'll pitch. If Smith gets his act together, they'd consider adding him to the 40 again. Etc. 

Do you think that statement applies to Grayson?

Do you think that the injury has any impact at all on the timetable Elias has in mind for Grayson?

I don't think Elias is budging a day off of whatever schedule he already has worked out.

[interloper]

1 minute ago, Can_of_corn said:

Do you think that statement applies to Grayson?

Do you think that the injury has any impact at all on the timetable Elias has in mind for Grayson?

I don't think Elias is budging a day off of whatever schedule he already has worked out.

1. I think Elias means if you pitch well, you'll be up here at some point. I don't think Grayson is in line for the Ellis replacement, no.

2. No.

3. Agreed for Grayson, but I think he's comfortable with Bradish. 

 

I guess I read this as more in relation to Bradish than Grayson. 

[Can_of_corn]

3 minutes ago, interloper said:

1. I think Elias means if you pitch well, you'll be up here at some point. I don't think Grayson is in line for the Ellis replacement, no.

2. No.

3. Agreed for Grayson, but I think he's comfortable with Bradish. 

 

I guess I read this as more in relation to Bradish than Grayson. 

It bugs me when Elias makes statements that I don't think are true.

I find it condescending.

 

[wildcard]

12 minutes ago, Tony-OH said:

You're looking for excuse and I'm just providing facts. I get it, you're a Elias disciple and you are ready to do battle with any who dare question your messiah.  

Saying that, I like a lot of things Elias has done to help rebuild this franchise, but until his development methods provide wins at the big league level, they are nothing more than fancy titles and secret methods hidden behind a wall of secrecy for the better good. lol

I hope he's proven right, I really do. But the Orioles are entering their 4th season under him and they're still an embarrassment at the major league level and I see no difference in injuries between the Orioles and other clubs yet they slow pitch all of their pitchers with low pitch counts and a lack of innings.

I thought this would be a transition year for Elias but he appears to be very happy to see this season be another last place, 100 loss fiasco. Obviously there are fans out there like you that have infinite patience and are fine with another pitiful major league performance on the field while better players sit in the minors because of controllability issues.

I get that, and that's your right as a fan to fan how you like, but my patience has run out.

Are there players close like Adley, Rodriguez. Bradish and Stowers that could help out this year, sure. Are there other interesting players in the system, sure. But no matter what, the Orioles really don't care about the fans but focus on the bottom line. Under this ownership and regime, I don't see that changing. 

 

This is a transition year.  Not from losing to winning necessiarilly.  But from stop gap players to propects.   Owings, Gutierrez, Ellis, Bemboon,  Odor, Lakins kind of guys are going to be gone in the next few  weeks or months.     There will be replaced with Adley, Grayson, DL, Bradish, Nevin,  Martin, Stowers and others.   And maybe we'll see  a player or two currently at AA in the majors later this season.

[interloper]

3 minutes ago, Can_of_corn said:

It bugs me when Elias makes statements that I don't think are true.

I find it condescending.

 

I don't understand - I still think everything he said is 100% true. You're adding additional meaning/context to it by making it 100% about Grayson. That's what YOU want the question to be about, but that's not the question. 

[luismatos4prez]

It's silly that Grayson is still in AAA. He should be up.

But I'm not convinced Mike is keeping him down for financial reasons (i.e. to avoid ROTY or Super 2). I think he genuinely believes in this hyper-conservative "Check all the boxes" philosophy. 

Maybe I'm naïve, but I think he's just an extremely patient and methodical guy. He coddles injuries and pitch counts and promotions from Delmarva to Aberdeen with the same hyper-conservative manner and those have nothing to do with money. 

[interloper]

16 minutes ago, luismatos4prez said:

It's silly that Grayson is still in AAA. He should be up.

But I'm not convinced Mike is keeping him down for financial reasons (i.e. to avoid ROTY or Super 2). I think he genuinely believes in this hyper-conservative "Check all the boxes" philosophy. 

Maybe I'm naïve, but I think he's just an extremely patient and methodical guy. He coddles injuries and pitch counts and promotions from Delmarva to Aberdeen with the same hyper-conservative manner and those have nothing to do with money. 

I tend to agree. People read into it all kinds of ways - I really just think it's the process they came in with and they stick to it. It's tough to deal with as fans, but at least they have a system. As a fan, I actually appreciate that. I don't appreciate things like only signing Lyles and Odor in the offseason. But I can feel both ways. Multitudes.