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2 hours ago, Sports Guy said:

A theme I see on this board is that many people want to bring back a similar team that we have now, just add the young talent in the minors and things will be fine.

The problem is that you are relying on guys who are having career years, when they have always been mediocre, to repeat the performance.

It’s not happening.  People thought Santander was a real GG caliber player after 2020.  After 2 months, people thought a Hays had turned the corner.  People thought Mullins was going to be an 800+ OPS guy going forward.

And now, Lyles is all of a sudden a MOR starter.  
 

This is not how you win.  While the playoffs are a crap shoot, the Orioles are currently 12 games worse than NY and that’s with us playing great and them playing terribly.  Houston is 15 games better.  Tampa isn’t healthy at all and missing many of their best players and are still in the playoffs. They will be a lot better when they get healthy soon and next year for sure.  Toronto is going to keep being good.  
 

You can’t just sit back and assume mediocre players are always going to be at the level they are this year.  It’s not going to work.

After 2012, the Os did next to nothing to improve the team.  I wasn’t here but I bet a lot of people here were more than happy to keep things status quo.  It’s not going to work.  Major improvements must be made and it starts but greatly upgrading the rotation.

I haven't read through this thread completely and I know that I am late to the party (busy day at work).

But I agree with this sentiment wholeheartedly!

I'm just surprised maybe even a bit saddened at how many fans on this board and in other places seem to be content to just compete for a wildcard spot next year by adding slightly better pitchers than we have now that are still "5 and dive" guys.

I know that Grayson Rodriguez is very highly regarded and we have very high hopes for him, but we are going to need more to compete with this best. For example think about the mismatch of the end of the Tampa series or even tonight's matchup. I think it is unreasonable to think that making slight improvements to what we have now is going to be enough to bridge the talent gap. You can only surprise/sneak up on people, overachieve for so long. In order to get to the World Series, we are going to have to have the horses.

If we are not going to attempt to sign the Verlanders of the world, who would be a perfect addition  (frontline, uber experienced starter, who can give us more quality length, be a great veteran presence for our young starters, and fits within affordability/length of contract given that even if we had to pay him $40 mil per for 2/3 years our current project payroll for next year is like 35/36 mil). The O's and for that matter ever MLB team should EASLIY be able to afford a 75- 90 mil payroll, especially if they want to win it all.

I guess it comes down to what the expectations are going to be, are we content to be "a little engine that could" which has a high probability of ending in a ceiling that is not a championship) or do we want to get off of that track and become a locomotive?

Elias said just days ago (and I have no reason not to believe him at this point) that next year the plan is to "significantly escalate the payroll".

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5 minutes ago, Bemorewins said:

I haven't read through this thread completely and I know that I am late to the party (busy day at work).

But I agree with this sentiment wholeheartedly!

I'm just surprised maybe even a bit saddened at how many fans on this board and in other places seem to be content to just compete for a wildcard spot next year by adding slightly better pitchers than we have now that are still "5 and dive" guys.to believe him at this point) that next year the plan is to "significantly escalate the payroll".

Pretty much everyone in this thread is proposing to add 1 or even 2 Top of Rotation starters through free agency and/or trade.

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15 minutes ago, Aristotelian said:

Pretty much everyone in this thread is proposing to add 1 or even 2 Top of Rotation starters through free agency and/or trade.

Yeah, but it is the type of starters that has me concerned. Like who are we considering true top of the rotation pitchers?

If it is the Verlanders, Rondons of the world cool. But just putting Pablo Lopez as our #1 to what we have now will not be sufficient IMO. And worse, if we add more Lyes types I see a much lower postseason ceiling. Somebody has to match up (bullet for bullet) once we face the Yanks, Stros, Dodgers. Mets, etc. 

It's not like I'm telling anyone anything that they don't already know. But those staffs have TOR guys with depth. We have the tools to fill out the depth part currently. But we are missing those Game 1 or Game 7 guys. 

Like I said, I hope Grayson gets there or is there immediately, but I hope we are not going to singularly count on him or Hall (who I'm not even sure) is going to be more of a "5 and die" guy with a great strikeout rate.

I just feel if we don't add elite guys now with the rest of the roster so inexpensive, when will we do it? 

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3 minutes ago, Bemorewins said:

Yeah, but it is the type of starters that has me concerned. Like who are we considering true top of the rotation pitchers?

...

I just feel if we don't add elite guys now with the rest of the roster so inexpensive, when will we do it? 

Fair enough, but the question on the table is how we see it playing out. I think we'd all love Verlander/Degrom/Scherzer, we just recognize pitchers like that have never signed with the O's. Realistically, Lopez/Clevinger would be a terrific get.

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2 minutes ago, Aristotelian said:

Fair enough, but the question on the table is how we see it playing out. I think we'd all love Verlander/Degrom/Scherzer, we just recognize pitchers like that have never signed with the O's. Realistically, Lopez/Clevinger would be a terrific get.

Yes that is absolutely true that we have never been ale to sign those type of pitchers. But I believe that our org has never been in this type of healthy place since the team has been at OPACY.

OPACY is now a pitcher's park, plus we have a very good up and coming roster (possibly coming off a playoff season), AND to top it all off we have the money/salary structure to spend.

Those type of vet guys can be had this offseason on ideal short term contracts that won't prevent us from keeping our own guys as none of them are close to coming up on FA. 

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3 minutes ago, Bemorewins said:

Yes that is absolutely true that we have never been ale to sign those type of pitchers. But I believe that our org has never been in this type of healthy place since the team has been at OPACY.

OPACY is now a pitcher's park, plus we have a very good up and coming roster (possibly coming off a playoff season), AND to top it all off we have the money/salary structure to spend.

Those type of vet guys can be had this offseason on ideal short term contracts that won't prevent us from keeping our own guys as none of them are close to coming up on FA. 

I am just saying I don't think anyone would oppose this type of signing, it's just unlikely (unless we are talking about a $300M type of contract). Even if you remove all the self-imposed obstacles we have had over the years, the bottom line is we are a mid market team at a major disadvantage.

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2 minutes ago, Aristotelian said:

I am just saying I don't think anyone would oppose this type of signing, it's just unlikely (unless we are talking about a $300M type of contract). Even if you remove all the self-imposed obstacles we have had over the years, the bottom line is we are a mid market team at a major disadvantage.

Verlander could be had on a 2yr around 40 mil per deal, Rodon maybe 4yr 30 mil per, Manaea, Bassitt maybe 4/5 yrs at around 20 mil per. Not sure about Chris Sale given the injuries this year.

But 2 out of those or similar types should absolutely be doable to add to a projected 35ish mil payroll. 

Even if you take Verlander and Rodon together that's a 105 mil payroll with us being in a serious conversation for World Series next year without having to be hamstrung years down the line.

I hope this org thinks this way. I believe that with the right 2 starting pitching additions plus Grayson next year to add to what we have, we are not far away from a legitimate world series contender IF we do this right.

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1 minute ago, Bemorewins said:

Verlander could be had on a 2yr around 40 mil per deal, Rodon maybe 4yr 30 mil per, Manaea, Bassitt maybe 4/5 yrs at around 20 mil per. Not sure about Chris Sale given the injuries this year.

But 2 out of those or similar types should absolutely be doable to add to a projected 35ish mil payroll. 

Even if you take Verlander and Rodon together that's a 105 mil payroll with us being in a serious conversation for World Series next year without having to be hamstrung years down the line.

I hope this org thinks this way. I believe that with the right 2 starting pitching additions plus Grayson next year to add to what we have, we are not far away from a legitimate world series contender IF we do this right.

I would love to see this happen and I think most of the board would agree. I also still think it is highly unlikely to happen.

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1 minute ago, Aristotelian said:

I would love to see this happen and I think most of the board would agree. I also still think it is highly unlikely to happen.

I hear you on that as it is most probable based on our past actions.

BUT if you want different results then what you have always gotten, you have to be willing to do things that differently than what you have done in the past.

I hope Elias and/or whoever is controlling the purse strings sees things like this and seizes the chance. Because I'm afraid using trade assets on a Pablo Lopez, weakening our team unnecessarily in another area, and then hoping that all our young/unproven guys come through seems to be a recipe for playoff disappointment.

But I guess the exciting thing about this season and this coming offseason is you never really know until you know.

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