Top 10 is done..No Intl prospects

[Sports Guy]

Do you find the fact that no one in Tony’s top 10 is an international prospect and only Basallo even really threatens the list to be an issue?

I know it takes time but the Os have been signing more guys and spending more money since Elias has been here and the results haven’t been that good.

[Can_of_corn]

3 minutes ago, Sports Guy said:

Do you find the fact that no one in Tony’s top 10 is an international prospect and only Basallo even really threatens the list to be an issue?

I know it takes time but the Os have been signing more guys and spending more money since Elias has been here and the results haven’t been that good.

Yes.

The current top 10 is dominated by high draft picks.  That's not a viable strategy going forward.  They need to start getting results from the International market and trades.

[Tony-OH]

15 minutes ago, Sports Guy said:

Do you find the fact that no one in Tony’s top 10 is an international prospect and only Basallo even really threatens the list to be an issue?

I know it takes time but the Os have been signing more guys and spending more money since Elias has been here and the results haven’t been that good.

With Basallo, Bencosme, and Estrada, we're starting to see the first group of cream rising to the top. Unfortunately, so far only Basallo has stood out among the top dollar international prospects but Tavera did show some life and there's talent in there.

[Frobby]

Yes, I see it as an issue.  However, our recent international signees are very young and playing at very low levels.  We could see some move up the list in the next year or two once they have success at Delmarva and beyond.   I do wish we had a couple more players really shining in the FCL/DSL.   We’ll see how 2023 goes.

Also, I certainly would think that Basallo would be in the top 10 in a lot of other systems.   We happen to have a stacked farm system.

Overall, I think we’ve made a lot of progress on the international front but there are at least some signs that we still have a significant way to go.  
 

Edited November 17, 2022 by Frobby

[Aristotelian]

Not really surprising to me. Gunnar is the first high school player we have developed under Elias to make it to the big leagues. Theoretically some international kids could have progressed by now but on top of their age we are starting that program basically from scratch. I'd also expect more misses early on before I start to get worried about wasting money. 

[Can_of_corn]

2 minutes ago, Aristotelian said:

Not really surprising to me. Gunnar is the first high school player we have developed under Elias to make it to the big leagues. Theoretically some international kids could have progressed by now but on top of their age we are starting that program basically from scratch. I'd also expect more misses early on before I start to get worried about wasting money. 

There were International players in the system.  The O's have developed International players before Elias got here.

Elias also acquired a number of International players via trade when he arrived. 

It's not what you want to see in a healthy farm system.

[RZNJ]

Basallo was signed in the 2nd class, is considered a very good prospect and just played in the FCL.   He's just outside the top 10.  Bencosme is a legit prospect.  He's probably top 20.   I think each class has gotten progressively better and deeper.    It takes time but I'm very encouraged by the 2nd half many of the 17-year old signings had in the DSL.

I think just as the high draft position is coming to an end, the DSL program is coming to full strength.   Just takes awhile to see the results most want to see.

[Aristotelian]

10 minutes ago, Can_of_corn said:

There were International players in the system.  The O's have developed International players before Elias got here.

Elias also acquired a number of International players via trade when he arrived. 

It's not what you want to see in a healthy farm system.

Definitely my impression is that we are still weak relative to other organizations. But relative to the time and resources we have put into it, I am not surprised, nor particularly concerned about it.

Here is an MLB.com article on the top 30 international signings in 2020-21. I'm not seeing a ton of names that are having more.success than our guys, especially relatively to the resources we have put into the program. . https://www.mlb.com/news/mlb-international-signing-day-2020-21

[Can_of_corn]

4 minutes ago, Aristotelian said:

Definitely my impression is that we are still weak relative to other organizations. But relative to the time and resources we have put into it, I am not surprised, nor particularly concerned about it.

Here is an MLB.com article on the top 30 international signings in 2020-21. I'm not seeing a ton of names that are having more.success than our guys, especially relatively to the resources we have put into the program. . https://www.mlb.com/news/mlb-international-signing-day-2020-21

I'm not proclaiming it the end of the world.

But it is a concern and not what you want to see.

Someone brought up Gunnar.  We aren't talking about these guys being major league ready, we are talking about being absent from a top 10 prospect list.

 

[Aristotelian]

14 minutes ago, Can_of_corn said:

I'm not proclaiming it the end of the world.

But it is a concern and not what you want to see.

Someone brought up Gunnar.  We aren't talking about these guys being major league ready, we are talking about being absent from a top 10 prospect list.

 

Looking at the MLB top 100, most of the international guys are from 2018 or 2019. I don't think it's a red flag that our international guys are outside our top 10, especially with the strength of our top 10. We also don't have any of the $3-4M signings. I guess I am expecting to lag the field while we are ramping up scouting, facilities, and $.

[forphase1]

No, doesn't bother me yet.  If we are in the same place 2-3 years down the road, then it'll bother me a bunch more.  We were basically starting from scratch from an international standpoint, and although I don't understand all of the way things are handled I've read enough stuff about relationships taking years to build and what not.  Maybe that stuff is overblown, and we have simply been cheap, I really don't know.  But the draft is easy, you draft a kid and he doesn't have much choice but to sign with ya.  International is different and you apparently have to cultivate the ground for a few years before you can really start harvesting.   I expect to see us start signing some top 10, 15 and 20 type guys and within the couple of years we need to start seeing some results.  But no, I wouldn't expect any of our top 10 to necessarily be from the international market, but that does need to change.  Hopefully we won't have any more high draft picks, and we will need the international talent system to start producing to keep our farm system top notch.  

[interloper]

On 11/17/2022 at 1:51 PM, Can_of_corn said:

Yes.

The current top 10 is dominated by high draft picks.  That's not a viable strategy going forward.  They need to start getting results from the International market and trades.

Technically, the Orioles international effort started when Elias was hired. But in reality, we only started being able to attract higher dollar signings last season. 

The international effort doesn't just take "three or four years" - it will take upwards of a decade to really be able to sign top talent AND have them pan out. Until then, we'll get the occasional top 20-or-so guy who breaks through like we have now. 

[Can_of_corn]

37 minutes ago, interloper said:

Technically, the Orioles international effort started when Elias was hired. But in reality, we only started being able to attract higher dollar signings last season. 

The international effort doesn't just take "three or four years" - it will take upwards of a decade to really be able to sign top talent AND have them pan out. Until then, we'll get the occasional top 20-or-so guy who breaks through like we have now. 

Technically the Orioles International effort started decades ago.

Yes the effort was the worst in the league but don't go saying it was non-existent.

That's just not truthful and you know it.

He also traded for players that aren't appearing on the list.

It is complete BS to try and spin this as something that takes a DECADE to do.

The amount of water carrying some folks are willing to engage in is staggering.

[Frobby]

7 minutes ago, Can_of_corn said:

Technically the Orioles International effort started decades ago.

Yes the effort was the worst in the league but don't go saying it was non-existent.

That's just not truthful and you know it.

He also traded for players that aren't appearing on the list.

It is complete BS to try and spin this as something that takes a DECADE to do.

The amount of water carrying some folks are willing to engage in is staggering.

What I’d like to see is a DSL team that is .500 or better with an average age no older than the league as a whole.  That will tell me we’re getting our share of the talent.   

That said, there’s a handful of interesting guys who played in the DSL, FCL or Delmarva last year.   It will get easier to tell how we’re doing as time goes along.  
 

[RZNJ]

4 minutes ago, Can_of_corn said:

Technically the Orioles International effort started decades ago.

Yes the effort was the worst in the league but don't go saying it was non-existent.

That's just not truthful and you know it.

He also traded for players that aren't appearing on the list.

It is complete BS to try and spin this as something that takes a DECADE to do.

The amount of water carrying some folks are willing to engage in is staggering.

Yes, he took fliers on lottery tickets in trades.  Mishael Deson, Jean Pinto, Kevin Guerrero, Juan Rojas, Juan Nunez, etc.    It seems like he did better with the pitchers than the hitters so far but who knows how it all shakes out.    None of those guys were high profile players when we got them.   If one of those guys was a current top 10 or top 20 prospect that would certainly be a feather in Elias' cap.    Pinto is the most advanced of the bunch right now.    Elias has had three J2 classes.    Would you at least agree that they weren't up to full speed until last year's class?   Clearly they weren't up to speed for the first class.    The second class was the Basallo/Maikol Hernandez class where we also got Bencosme.     I mean, Basallo just missed out on the deepest top 10 in baseball.  Bencosme is probably a top 20 prospect in our system.    That seems decent to me.    Is it "carrying water" for Elias to suggest that they haven't been great but it seems like things are getting better and headed in the right direction.   There are some current results and hopes that we do have a good structure in place.    I do think last year's class if you compare to prior classes is, by far, our deepest J2 class ever.   As always, time will tell.   I'm just not sure what your expectations were.    Should we have had a top 10 prospect from the trades or the first J2 class?