ESPN Top 100

[Ripken]

1 hour ago, sportsfan8703 said:

The Urias knee injury at the end of last season. 

Had nothing to do with anything.

[OriolesMagic83]

30 minutes ago, Sports Guy said:

Frazier is making 8M (10-15% of the payroll) on a team owned by an owner that is cheap as hell. He is 100% getting 450 or more at bats even if he struggles at the plate because his defense will be “good enough. (this is assuming health)

He is definitely taking at bats away from Westburg, who should be the starting second baseman on day 1.

The organization should have made it a priority to make sure Westburg starts everyday in the majors in and they should have paved the way for Ortiz.

They did neither. That’s a failure on their part.

That's what I have a problem with.  The O's (Angelos) are so cheap and then they spend a major part of their payroll unwisely and block a couple of their top prospects (only one would take Frazier's place).

[Can_of_corn]

4 hours ago, Sports Guy said:

Garrett Atkins

Sorry, you did not phrase your response in the form of a question.

[OriolesMagic83]

48 minutes ago, Sports Guy said:

Lol these arguments are just…so bad.

Maybe we should send Adley down. I mean, it won’t hurt anything, right?

Let Adley win a triple crown in Norfolk and then we'll know his bat is ready.

[Frobby]

36 minutes ago, Sports Guy said:

The Baylor argument you mentioned. It’s just horrible. 

It’s like, well it’s ok that we blocked a ML ready, top 75 prospect because it didn’t do a guy harm 50 years ago!!!
 

You have no sense of perspective.  Every decision you disagree with is horrible.   I personally wouldn’t have signed Frazier, but the odds are pretty good that he’ll be better than Westburg would be, judging from the data about the success of comparable prospects that I posted.  And if Westburg is that good, waiting a few months or even a full year to become a major league starter won’t kill his career.  

[OriolesMagic83]

4 hours ago, LTO's said:

I haven't said that he has. But I don't hold unrealistic expectations that aren't reflective of reality. I don't understand why you, SG and others are under the impression that there is top tier outside talent out there that is reasonably acquirable right now. It's been said like a billion times by a billion people that the trade market is pretty much dead unless you are willing to swap top tier talent with another contender. If you don't believe those words, you can look at the trades that have happened it's obvious why the O's had to settle for someone like Irvin. The A's and Royals have traded ML players for prospects. Pretty much everyone else has traded big league pieces for big league pieces. When that changes and Elias either doesn't make a trade or makes a bad one, we can judge. It's irrelevant at the moment. And obviously the FA issue is self explanatory. 

This is my problem with you and SG. The hyperbole and whining is just annoying. You may not think Frazier is anything but an average player. That's fine. Can't even say I disagree with you all that much. But the move isn't anywhere near as bad as you make it out to be. You have just convinced yourself, unrealistically, that there is NO chance that Frazier is a better player in 2023 than Jordan Westburg, especially initially. Creating vet depth to guard against potential regression/negative value from the two waiver claims and the young prospects isn't dumb. It's what teams on the margins do when they can't just go out and get a Swanson or Correa or Turner. Westburg will be up and given plenty of playing time given that he's already played 90+ games in AAA. It's not "dumb" to not just hand him the starting 2B spot for a full season before he has seen a pitch in the big leagues. This team is trying to make the playoffs this year and has made strides to reduce risk and avoid negative value. As I said before, these things will work themselves out for a multitude of reasons. 

It's not like Westburg is the only guy that could play 2b or the O's would have a waiver wire guy there.  If Westburg failed, they could have tried Ortiz there.  If Ortiz failed, they would still have Urias and Vavra as fall backs.

[Tony-OH]

4 hours ago, ThisIsBirdland said:

Whoops, sorry dude, too late to talk about Povich. We're on to Page 5, the official Adam Frazier breaking point for every thread on this forum

Now that is funny.

Frazier really is a test of the ability for a fan to evaluate without his/her heart in their evaluation of a player. It's takes blind devotion to the ability of Elias and company to find talent when every bit of statistical information you can get your hands on on argues this was a terrible move. Particularly because they literally have a top 100 prospect who has over 400 AAA PAs ready. 

And even if Westburg fails, they have another top 100 prospect (on some lists) in Ortiz who we know can play GG caliber second base regardless of the bat. 

That's not one, but two price controlled internal options that could have filled a void that was filled by Frazier.

It still boggles my mind that we have people who will defend this move and die on that hill while telling everyone that disagrees that they using hyperbole and whining. lol

Can't make that kind of fandom up.

Elias could have used one of his two top 100 guys at second base, and taken that $8 million and put with Gibson's money and had Bassitt if he was willing to three years.

Who here would not rather have a rotation of:

1. Bassitt
2. Kremer
3. Bradish
4. Irvin
5. Rodriguez

With a starting lineup up of:

1. Henderson- SS (yes I'm starting him there at the beginning of his career because Urias brings more value than Mateo)
2. Rustchman - C
3. Santander - DH
4. Mountcastle - 1B
5. Stowers - RF
6. Hays - RF
7. Mullins - CF
8. Westburg - 2B
9. Urias - 3B

Sign me up for that!!!! 

When Mateo plays he goes to SS and Henderson moves over to 3B. 

This could have happened with the same money invested as this year's team.

 

 

[Sports Guy]

40 minutes ago, Frobby said:

You have no sense of perspective.  Every decision you disagree with is horrible.   I personally wouldn’t have signed Frazier, but the odds are pretty good that he’ll be better than Westburg would be, judging from the data about the success of comparable prospects that I posted.  And if Westburg is that good, waiting a few months or even a full year to become a major league starter won’t kill his career.  

 

41 minutes ago, Frobby said:

You have no sense of perspective.  Every decision you disagree with is horrible.   I personally wouldn’t have signed Frazier, but the odds are pretty good that he’ll be better than Westburg would be, judging from the data about the success of comparable prospects that I posted.  And if Westburg is that good, waiting a few months or even a full year to become a major league starter won’t kill his career.  

Would it kill Gunnar’s career to send him back down?

Should we keep GRod in AAA because it won’t kill his career?

[ThisIsBirdland]

Just now, Sports Guy said:

 

Would it kill Gunnar’s career to send him back down?

Should we keep GRod in AAA because it won’t kill his career?

In fairness, I think the comments about sending players like Gunnar/Adley back down are missing the point. They were more highly regarded prospects who got their minor league seasoning and they've shown they can be successful at this level. If Grayson struggles we can roll Wells or Voth back out there.

The concern I think is that IF Westburg/Ortiz aren't ready or struggled early, there wouldn't be enough viable options on the roster when they're hoping to pursue a playoff spot. I fall into the group that treats this like the unsexiest insurance of all time. I wouldn't have allocated the resources this way, but I definitely won't lose sleep over it. And to trust Elias on this call when he was with Houston during a very similar rebuild that had a setback after their first decent year just feels like the prudent thing to do as a fan. I frankly know less about Westburg and Ortiz's readiness, and the risk relying on them in 2023 carries, than Elias does.

[Sports Guy]

49 minutes ago, ThisIsBirdland said:

In fairness, I think the comments about sending players like Gunnar/Adley back down are missing the point. They were more highly regarded prospects who got their minor league seasoning and they've shown they can be successful at this level. If Grayson struggles we can roll Wells or Voth back out there.

The concern I think is that IF Westburg/Ortiz aren't ready or struggled early, there wouldn't be enough viable options on the roster when they're hoping to pursue a playoff spot. I fall into the group that treats this like the unsexiest insurance of all time. I wouldn't have allocated the resources this way, but I definitely won't lose sleep over it. And to trust Elias on this call when he was with Houston during a very similar rebuild that had a setback after their first decent year just feels like the prudent thing to do as a fan. I frankly know less about Westburg and Ortiz's readiness, and the risk relying on them in 2023 carries, than Elias does.

If you want an insurance policy, you sign Harrison for 1/3 of the cost and start the young, ML ready players.

You have 3 MiL prospects that are second baseman. You have Urias as well.

The last thing this team needed was insurance.

[Sports Guy]

55 minutes ago, ThisIsBirdland said:

In fairness, I think the comments about sending players like Gunnar/Adley back down are missing the point. They were more highly regarded prospects who got their minor league seasoning and they've shown they can be successful at this level. If Grayson struggles we can roll Wells or Voth back out there.

The concern I think is that IF Westburg/Ortiz aren't ready or struggled early, there wouldn't be enough viable options on the roster when they're hoping to pursue a playoff spot. I fall into the group that treats this like the unsexiest insurance of all time. I wouldn't have allocated the resources this way, but I definitely won't lose sleep over it. And to trust Elias on this call when he was with Houston during a very similar rebuild that had a setback after their first decent year just feels like the prudent thing to do as a fan. I frankly know less about Westburg and Ortiz's readiness, and the risk relying on them in 2023 carries, than Elias does.

Oh and GRod has shown as much at the ML level as Westburg has.

[ThisIsBirdland]

14 minutes ago, Sports Guy said:

If you want an insurance policy, you sign Harrison for 1/3 of the cost and start the young, ML ready players.

You have 3 MiL prospects that are second baseman. You have Urias as well.

The last thing this team needed was insurance.

1/4 of the cost actually, I assume you're talking about Josh Harrison?

Maybe it's the age, maybe they're set on the LH aspect, or maybe they like Frazier 4x as much because they think there's a good shot they get him back to the 2021 version. Or maybe they're just wrong.

Like I said, I wouldn't have allocated the resources this way, especially if they prevented something like the Gibson deal becoming the Bassitt deal. I doubt that's the case and think it's tied more to the years/total $, but who knows.

I just feel confident they know more about it than we do and if they're wrong, it's not a very big deal.

[ThisIsBirdland]

16 minutes ago, Sports Guy said:

Oh and GRod has shown as much at the ML level as Westburg has.

Again, I think they believe Wells/Voth are more reliable than Urias + Westburg/Ortiz in early 2023.

[Sports Guy]

1 minute ago, ThisIsBirdland said:

1/4 of the cost actually, I assume you're talking about Josh Harrison?

Maybe it's the age, maybe they're set on the LH aspect, or maybe they like Frazier 4x as much because they think there's a good shot they get him back to the 2021 version. Or maybe they're just wrong.

Like I said, I wouldn't have allocated the resources this way, especially if they prevented something like the Gibson deal becoming the Bassitt deal. I doubt that's the case and think it's tied more to the years/total $, but who knows.

I just feel confident they know more about it than we do and if they're wrong, it's not a very big deal.

So basically, you are of the mindset that if they do it, we shouldn’t question it?  They should get the benefit of the doubt when every single piece of evidence points to this being a pointless and poor move?

[Sports Guy]

Just now, ThisIsBirdland said:

Again, I think they believe Wells/Voth are more reliable than Urias + Westburg/Ortiz in early 2023.

That makes no sense.