Should the Orioles retire Mussina’s number?

[Frobby]

2 minutes ago, Sports Guy said:

His peak Os seasons were right there with Palmer’s peak Os seasons and he didn’t have the benefit of the greatest defenses of all time playing behind him.

Are you just stating these as facts or are you making an argument that his number should be retired?  

I’d say Palmer’s peak was a little higher than Mussina’s, but Mussina was good for a longer time. Palmer won 53 games after age 32, while Mussina won 106.   
 

[Can_of_corn]

4 minutes ago, Moose Milligan said:

What 

Obviously they think that Peter Angelos should have profited more from Mussina's time as an Oriole.

[Frobby]

6 minutes ago, Moose Milligan said:

Tony put the caveat of not winning 20 games with the Orioles in that sentence. Subject/preposition agreement or something like that. 

Not to go all grammarian on you, but where Tony placed the comma in that sentence, “with the Orioles” only modifies “never won a World Series.”  But whatever, it’s all good.

 

[Moose Milligan]

1 minute ago, Frobby said:

Not to go all grammarian on you, but where Tony placed the comma in that sentence, “with the Orioles” only modifies “never won a World Series.”  But whatever, it’s all good.

 

Ohhhhhhh but you DID get all grammarian!

[DrungoHazewood]

3 minutes ago, tntoriole said:

“Retiring one’s number” .. such a quaint relic from the days when players stayed as slaves to wherever they were assigned and we thought that meant they were “loyal.” 
 

What is his number? Is someone wearing it?  
 

I think the entire bizarre ritual of “retiring one’s number” should be retired. 

He worked for the Orioles. He did his job and was overpaid.  That is all.  Valhallas and Halls are mythological things. 

Since many fans have this leftover expectation that players are forever loyal to whatever team happens to draft them, but those same teams can release or trade or demote said players at any moment... well, perhaps there needs to be some kind of player-equivalent honor to retiring numbers, where they can honor the teams they felt most connected to.  I know that's probably unworkable and silly, but this whole retiring numbers thing is completely one-sided.

Example: BJ Surhoff desperately wanted to stay in Baltimore, he literally cried at the press conference about the trade. But nope, it's a business, he had no choice, so off to Atlanta he went. But players need to be loyal to the team, right.

[Sports Guy]

2 minutes ago, Frobby said:

Are you just stating these as facts or are you making an argument that his number should be retired?  

I’d say Palmer’s peak was a little higher than Mussina’s, but Mussina was good for a longer time. Palmer won 53 games after age 32, while Mussina won 106.   
 

I’d have no problem with them retiring his number in a vacuum.

I think there’s a real argument that he was the best pitcher this organization has ever had. Palmer had the longevity and better Os career but Moose has the argument of just purely being the better pitcher.

Now, that said, if the club has criteria X for retiring a number and he didn’t meet it, so be it. I’m ok with not retiring it for that reason.

But the idea that he left what was a completely awful dog poop organization with an awful owner, even if it was to go to the Yankees, is meaningless to me. All of the blame is on PA for that.

I think some of the stuff about “the Yankees made me feel wanted” was a little boo hoo/baby type stuff but I all think that was a direct shot at Angelos for being so cheap. He gave this team a long time of value and high level pitching. He was an outstanding postseason pitcher for us and PA basically told him he wasn’t worth much. So, I get it.

[LookinUp]

18 minutes ago, Sports Guy said:

His peak Os seasons were right there with Palmer’s peak Os seasons and he didn’t have the benefit of the greatest defenses of all time playing behind him.

He was electric. I consider myself lucky to have watched him pitching for my team. The best we've had during my fandom (absent very young years).

12 minutes ago, Aristotelian said:

I don't follow Buster. Why all of a sudden is he grinding this axe? Is a $48M team in first place in the AL East not enough of a storyline? I do not think Mussina merits retired number, especially not for the Orioles.

ESPN was making it about both teams at that point, so Mussina is a natural fit. My bigger takeaway was about how I'm watching an ESPN broadcast with the Yankees on it and just about all of the gushing was about the Orioles. It was great, and well deserved. I hope you're all enjoying this. It's fun.

[Sports Guy]

2 minutes ago, LookinUp said:

He was electric. I consider myself lucky to have watched him pitching for my team. The best we've had during my fandom (absent very young years).

ESPN was making it about both teams at that point, so Mussina is a natural fit. My bigger takeaway was about how I'm watching an ESPN broadcast with the Yankees on it and just about all of the gushing was about the Orioles. It was great, and well deserved. I hope you're all enjoying this. It's fun.

Yea, Ravech brought up the subject and asked Buster about it. 

[Tony-OH]

28 minutes ago, Frobby said:

There are some factual errors here.  Angelos never matched the Yankees’ offer or even close.  And Mussina did win 20 games, in his final season.  He belongs in Cooperstown, and to mention him in the same breath as Baines is silly.

None of that means his number should be retired in Baltimore. 
 

I've heard multiple reports that Angelos did indeed match the Yankees offer, but it was too late including from VERY close sources at the time.

If you reread the sentence I said he never won a WS, Cy Young or 20-win season with the Orioles. 

That last statement is your opinion only, not a fact. He was a very good pitcher like Harold Baines was a very good hitter. They both do not belong in the HoF for me. 

[Can_of_corn]

2 minutes ago, Sports Guy said:

Yea, Ravech brought up the subject and asked Buster about it. 

You know Baltimore fans.

It could be 99% positive and folks will focus on the 1%, every time.

[Sports Guy]

5 minutes ago, Tony-OH said:

I've heard multiple reports that Angelos did indeed match the Yankees offer, but it was too late including from VERY close sources at the time.

If you reread the sentence I said he never won a WS, Cy Young or 20-win season with the Orioles. 

That last statement is your opinion only, not a fact. He was a very good pitcher like Harold Baines was a very good hitter. They both do not belong in the HoF for me. 

Moose is 60th all time in WAR and the list of people who he is ahead of a who’s who of baseball history.

He is, without question, a HOFer.

Baines isn’t even in the same galaxy as Mussina.

https://www.baseball-reference.com/leaders/WAR_career.shtml

Edited July 31, 2023 by Sports Guy

[MCO'sFan]

2 hours ago, SilentJames said:

Buster Olney has been grinding this ace for the last 12 hours. The Orioles have not retired Mussina’s number and this is a grave offense to Olney. 
 

so how do we feel? 
options:

1) The Orioles should do it and the fact they haven’t is an insult (the Olney position) 

2) The Orioles should do it but they haven’t and it’s their call so meh.

3) The Orioles shouldn’t do it because he didn’t go into the Hall as “an Oriole,” and the team has to draw the line somewhere. 

4) I really don’t care 

5) The Orioles shouldn’t do it because Mussina is a traitor and I still haven’t gotten over it. 

I am a firm 3 with a little 4 and an equal amount of 5. 

[Frobby]

9 minutes ago, Tony-OH said:

I've heard multiple reports that Angelos did indeed match the Yankees offer, but it was too late including from VERY close sources at the time.

If you reread the sentence I said he never won a WS, Cy Young or 20-win season with the Orioles. 

That last statement is your opinion only, not a fact. He was a very good pitcher like Harold Baines was a very good hitter. They both do not belong in the HoF for me. 

If you don’t think Mussina belongs in the Hall of Fame, that’s fine.  But let’s be clear.  Mussina was worth 82.8 rWAR, 23rd all time among pitchers, and higher than most other pitchers in the Hall of Fame.  Harold Baines was worth 38.8 rWAR and there are literally hundreds of players above him on the rWAR list who are not in the Hall of Fame.  He is 370th among position players.  

As to the history of the negotiations with Mussina, I think you are misremembering the situation. Angelos made a last minute offer that essentially was about what Mussina originally asked for, but by that time the Yankees were offereing far more.  This was well documented in prior posts on this subject by both me and @TonySoprano(who I’m sure will back me up if he happens to read this).  I could dig it all up again, but I’ve done it too many times to feel like doing that.  
 

[Hank Scorpio]

Firmly 4

[Tony-OH]

38 minutes ago, Sports Guy said:

Moose is 60th all time in WAR and the list of people who he is ahead of a who’s who of baseball history.

He is, without question, a HOFer.

Baines isn’t even in the same galaxy as Mussina.

https://www.baseball-reference.com/leaders/WAR_career.shtml

He never won a Cy Young and was only a 20 game winner once. He never won a WS. 

His WAR is because of his longevity. He may not belong with Harold Baines, but rarely did I ever think Mu$$ina was among the best pitchers in the league. 

Outside of 1999 when he finished 2nd, he was never higher than 4th in Cy voting.

In his first five years in the league he was very good with the Orioles going 71-30 with a 3.25 ERA  (139 +ERA) in 125 starts for the Orioles.

The rest of his career he was very good (120 +ERA) but not dominant. 

Again, I'm not arguing that Mu$$ina was not a very good pitcher for a long time, I just think HoFamers should be players that were among the best if not the best for a significant amount of time. He was an All-Star five times with the Orioles, but never was selected over his last nine years of his career. 

So again, not arguing that Mu$$ina is not a good pitcher, he just does not meet the standard I think belongs in the HoF. But there are a lot of others pitchers I could say that about as well. 

The HoF has been so watered down at this point it doesn't matter. 

But anyways, no matter what, his number should never be retired by the Orioles.