Should we offer extensions to any of our starting pitchers, either now or in the offseason?

[Sports Guy]

Thinking about this more and more and I think we should replace 2 starters in the offseason.

I would go into the offseason with the thought that GRod, Bradish and Means are in the rotation.

That leaves you with Kremer, Wells and Irvin as your ML options.

I would try to trade Kremer, which should be pretty easy to do. I can’t go into another season relying on Wells to take the ball 25+ times as a starter. He would go to the pen and basically pitch in any role needed out there, as he can be a late inning guy or a long man.

Irvin would be my swing guy. You will need more than 5 starters and he is a guy I would lean on. 
 

Im guessing you won’t be able to rely on Hall either. Not sure what they will do with him but I would guess he starts 2024 in the ML pen if they haven’t traded him.

But I would look to trade some of our depth for a young controllable starter and sign one of the FAs, preferably Snell. 
 

I don’t think this team can afford to sit on their hands in the offseason and just assume improvement from within. You have to be aggressive and bring in significant upgrades to the top end talent of your staff.

If you add one of those good arms available in FA and a young controllable starter with high upside, you change the outlook of your rotation in a major way imo.

The Os will be able to get by, as they are this year, with decent starters because of the wall and because the defense should be good but I think they should be looking for more than just being able to get by.

[wildcard]

16 minutes ago, Sports Guy said:

Thinking about this more and more and I think we should replace 2 starters in the offseason.

I would go into the offseason with the thought that GRod, Bradish and Means are in the rotation.

That leaves you with Kremer, Wells and Irvin as your ML options.

I would try to trade Kremer, which should be pretty easy to do. I can’t go into another season relying on Wells to take the ball 25+ times as a starter. He would go to the pen and basically pitch in any role needed out there, as he can be a late inning guy or a long man.

Irvin would be my swing guy. You will need more than 5 starters and he is a guy I would lean on. 
 

Im guessing you won’t be able to rely on Hall either. Not sure what they will do with him but I would guess he starts 2024 in the ML pen if they haven’t traded him.

But I would look to trade some of our depth for a young controllable starter and sign one of the FAs, preferably Snell. 
 

I don’t think this team can afford to sit on their hands in the offseason and just assume improvement from within. You have to be aggressive and bring in significant upgrades to the top end talent of your staff.

If you add one of those good arms available in FA and a young controllable starter with high upside, you change the outlook of your rotation in a major way imo.

The Os will be able to get by, as they are this year, with decent starters because of the wall and because the defense should be good but I think they should be looking for more than just being able to get by.

McDermott?

[Just Regular]

We'll get some actions showing what they reallly think of Tyler Wells soon.

Irvin is for me more like Austin Voth than Dean Kremer - he can be there but him in the First Five is low hanging fruit.

If Wells is a starter and Means is healthy, the rotation looks full, even without Gibson.

The way '24 BAL might "need" a SP is if the gameplan after October is Tyler Wells unites with Felix and Cano (and DL Hall and McDermott?) from the jump.

But then Kyle Gibson is a path of least resistance, and if he can't get 2 years anywhere at his advanced age, he's a proven fit for the GM's price taste and the guys in the Clubhouse.

Edited August 17, 2023 by Just Regular

[Sports Guy]

7 minutes ago, wildcard said:

McDermott?

What about him?

[Matt Bennett]

18 minutes ago, Just Regular said:

We'll get some actions showing what they reallly think of Tyler Wells soon.

Irvin is for me more like Austin Voth than Dean Kremer - he can be there but him in the First Five is low hanging fruit.

If Wells is a starter and Means is healthy, the rotation looks full, even without Gibson.

The way '24 BAL might "need" a SP is if the gameplan after October is Tyler Wells unites with Felix and Cano (and DL Hall and McDermott?) from the jump.

But then Kyle Gibson is a path of least resistance, and if he can't get 2 years anywhere at his advanced age, he's a proven fit for the GM's price taste and the guys in the Clubhouse.

Gibson isn’t good enough for the 2024 Orioles rotation, as Lyles wasn’t good enough for the 2023 rotation. 

[wildcard]

22 minutes ago, Sports Guy said:

What about him?

He is doing well at AAA.   I have to see how he ends the year, but if he does well he could figure into the O's  staff next year.  Maybe as a starter or long reliever. 

I agree with you that the O's have GRod, Bradish and Means next year.   Kremer is having a good 2nd half.   Right now he has a  3.83 ERA in the 2nd half and it looks like he may ended up with 30-32 starts.     A good 2nd half could make him a keeper.

Wells appears to be good for about 17 starts at about a 3.20 ERA.    I would keep him  as a starter for that and just build the team not expecting him to pitch in the 2nd half.  He has options and he can go to the pen if he can find some control in the 2nd half next year.

I agree with you on Irvin.   He could be a swingman/ spot starter.   The O's have helped him refine his pitches and he is having a good 2nd half so far.

McDermott could be a starter that pitches at AAA and is brought up to the majors when needed.   Maybe more in the 2nd half of 2024. 

That is 7 starters.   I can see Elias adding more pitching depth this off season.

 

 

Edited August 17, 2023 by wildcard

[Sports Guy]

As of today, my prediction is that the Os win the division with relative ease but lose to Houston or Texas in their first playoff series. While that will be disappointing, the season will be resounding success.

That being said, anything short of a deep playoff run in 2024 will be a disappointment and because of that, you can’t go into next year with guys like Gibson in the rotation. If you weren’t bringing back who you are bringing back and if you didn’t have a slew of resources to go get whatever you want, it may be ok to bring him back for the back of the rotation but this team needs real upgrades. This team needs, put you over the top, can go up against anyone upgrades.

People want to poo poo the pythag record and I get it to an extent but the bottom line is, in any sport, the teams that are giving up the least amount of runs/points and scoring the most runs/points are generally the best teams. 
 

The Os offense is going to continue to get better. I’m not worried about that.  But the pitching needs a lot of help.

We need legit rotation upgrades and a BP overhaul. Some of that overhaul will come from within.

[Sports Guy]

9 minutes ago, wildcard said:

He is doing well at AAA.   I have to see how he ends the year, but if he does well he could figure into the O's  staff next year.  Maybe as a starter or long reliever. 

I agree with you that the O's have GRod, Bradish and Means next year.   Kremer is having a good 2nd half.   Right now he has a  3.83 ERA in the 2nd half and it looks like he may ended up with 30-32 starts.     A good 2nd half could make him a keeper.

Wells appears to be good for about 17 starts at about a 3.20 ERA.    I would keep him  as a starter for that and just build the team not expecting him to pitch in the 2nd half.  He has options and he can go to the pen if he can find some control in the 2nd half next year.

I agree with you on Irvin.   He could be a swingman/ spot starter.   The O's have helped him refine his pitches and he is having a good 2nd half so far.

McDermott could be a starter that pitches at AAA and is brought up to the majors when needed.   Maybe more in the 2nd half of 2024. 

That is 7 starters.   I can see Elias adding more pitching depth this off season.

 

 

Listen, you are an optimistic guy and that’s great but you never want to plan for the worst.

This team should enter 2024 as one of, if not the, WS favorite in the AL. You do not hand a rotation spot to a guy in AAA who is doing ok.

You do not hand a rotation spot to a guy who wears down half way through the year and has had durability issues in his pro career.

There is no plan that should have either of those guys as anything but members of the 2024 pen and if injuries occur and we need them and they perform, great.

Real additions needs to happen. You want the 2012 and 2014 off seasons. They did very little and the results were to be expected.

The best teams keep building and fix their issues. They don’t just say, well we got by in 2023 with what we have, so let’s do that again and hope for the best. That’s just a poor plan.

 7 teams in the AL have given up less runs than the Os and the Yankees are only 2 runs behind us and their pitching has been decimated by injuries and that is with the Os having a pretty good defense.
 

That has to improve and that improvement isn’t going to come from within, outside of maybe the pen.

Oh and Kremer has been fine but like i said, he has a lot of warning signs that he could be worse.

 

Edited August 17, 2023 by Sports Guy

[Frobby]

43 minutes ago, wildcard said:

McDermott?

McDermott is certainly interesting if he continues to keep the walks down.  He’s got what, another 6 starts or so to make this year?   I could see him getting a pretty serious look next spring if he finishes this year strong, but knowing Elias, McDermott’s ETA is probably midseason next year, not early April.   

Edited August 17, 2023 by Frobby

[Moose Milligan]

I'm having a hard time reconciling why someone who's 6'8" and 265 lbs has a hard time making it through an MLB season without tiring.

True, he's never been asked to throw this many innings before, except back in 2018.  But if I'm the Orioles I'm putting him on a strict conditioning plan for this offseason so he can throw more innings next year.  I don't see why he can't be someone that can give 180+ innings.  

BTW, I wouldn't be banking on him for a rotation spot either due to his conditioning issues.  Maybe there's nothing that can be done to get him to throw more innings, maybe this is just who he really is.

[Sports Guy]

1 minute ago, Moose Milligan said:

I'm having a hard time reconciling why someone who's 6'8" and 265 lbs has a hard time making it through an MLB season without tiring.

True, he's never been asked to throw this many innings before, except back in 2018.  But if I'm the Orioles I'm putting him on a strict conditioning plan for this offseason so he can throw more innings next year.  I don't see why he can't be someone that can give 180+ innings.  

BTW, I wouldn't be banking on him for a rotation spot either due to his conditioning issues.  Maybe there's nothing that can be done to get him to throw more innings, maybe this is just who he really is.

Yep..and he can also be a weapon out of the pen. He should be able to throw 100 innings out there in various roles. That’s extremely valuable because he should put up excellent numbers.

[wildcard]

3 minutes ago, Sports Guy said:

Listen, you are an optimistic guy and that’s great but you never want to plan for the worst.

This team should enter 2024 as one of, if not the, WS favorite in the AL. You do not hand a rotation spot to a guy in AAA who is doing ok.

You do not hand a rotation spot to a guy who wears down half way through the year and has had durability issues in his pro career.

There is no plan that should have either of those guys as anything but members of the 2024 pen and if injuries occur and we need them and they perform, great.

Real additions needs to happen. You want the 2012 and 2014 off seasons. They did very little and the results were to be expected.

The best teams keep building and fix their issues. They don’t just say, well we got by in 2023 with what we have, so let’s do that again and hope for the best. That’s just a poor plan.

 7 teams in the AL have given up less runs than the Os and the Yankees are only 2 runs behind us and their pitching has been decimated by injuries and that is with the Os having a pretty good defense.
 

That has to improve and that improvement isn’t going to come from within, outside of maybe the pen.

 

There should be improvement in 2024 starting staff without doing mean.

Getting 32 starts out of GRod as the O's ace will be a huge improvement.   Bradish being comfortable as the #2 from the start of the season will be an improvement.

Getting a full year from Means is like making a trade for an experience starter.

And let's see what McDermott does the rest of the season.  He could be a starter that Elias has to find room for on the O's 2024 starting staff.   I just need to see more the rest of this season.

I don't see any of that as sit on their hands.   There is significant improvement there.

[Moose Milligan]

6 minutes ago, Sports Guy said:

Yep..and he can also be a weapon out of the pen. He should be able to throw 100 innings out there in various roles. That’s extremely valuable because he should put up excellent numbers.

Yeah, I agree he should be good out of the bullpen.  Either way, he should be an asset to this team moving forward.  

[Sports Guy]

5 minutes ago, wildcard said:

There should be improvement in 2024 starting staff without doing mean.

Getting 32 starts out of GRod as the O's ace will be a huge improvement.   Bradish being comfortable as the #2 from the start of the season will be an improvement.

Getting a full year from Means is like making a trade for an experience starter.

And let's see what McDermott does the rest of the season.  He could be a starter that Elias has to find room for on the O's 2024 starting staff.   I just need to see more the rest of this season.

I don't see any of that as sit on their hands.   There is significant improvement there.

Right..and that’s why those 3 are penned into my 2024 rotation.

But those 3 are not enough. We also don’t know what the 2023 workload will do to the 2024 seasons of GRod and Bradish. It may have zero effect. It may have some effect. We just don’t know. You need real insurance for that. You need a real margin for error. Cole Irvin and Tyler Wells should be your secondary line of defense for that.

Your primary line of defense is just better starters to start with.

McDermott isnt someone who should be in consideration for the rotation of a team that is a legit WS contender. He’s not there yet.  He’s going to have about 130 innings in the upper minors. He has command and control issues. I like him and he is one of the reasons I’m not signing Means to an extension and he certainly could play a rotational role at some point next year but I’m not entering the year and making moves in the offseason with the thought that he is in my 2024 rotation.
 

[wildcard]

1 minute ago, Moose Milligan said:

Yeah, I agree he should be good out of the bullpen.  Either way, he should be an asset to this team moving forward.  

Have a guy that projects to pitch 17 starts at a 3.20 ERA  is valuable.    I would not just throw that away.