Jackson Holliday spring training watch

[Sports Guy]

4 minutes ago, Can_of_corn said:

SG has a thing about 2B not being a highly regarded position.

 

This is actually a lie

[Can_of_corn]

1 minute ago, Sports Guy said:

It’s not just me who believes that. You would be hard pressed to find position players this highly rated that are definitive second baseman. Not saying it can’t happen but it’s rare and will always be rare.

I am aware that it isn't just you.

[Sports Guy]

Just now, banks703 said:

Everyone is entitled to their opinions and despite my bickering with him, I do value his perspective on things though I almost exclusively disagree with him. 

JH is going to hit from Day 1 with bat-to-ball skills that the O's have maybe never had in their org...ever. That's obviously saying a lot but the kid is going to produce top tier offensive seasons whether his feet are in the dirt on the left or the right side of the infield, playing CF, super utility, selling peanuts or cleaning the toilets. His defense doesn't have a lot of influence on his prospect ranking. The kid is a stud with the stick, plain and simple. He would still be extremely highly ranked for his incredibly mature offensive game regardless of his future position. 

Yea, he would be very highly ranked…he would not be a consensus top prospect and one of the 10 best prospects we have seen in the last decade. Saying his position doesn’t matter with these rankings is foolish at best.

[Can_of_corn]

Just now, Sports Guy said:

This is actually a lie

Well than I apologize for wording it poorly since you agreed with something I said that, to me, meant basically the same thing.

[banks703]

4 minutes ago, Sports Guy said:

Sure, that could happen.  I happen to think Mayo can play a Ml third base based on what I have read and what little I have seen.

That said, I also don’t think he will be close to Gunnar at third, who I think could be a perennial GG player there. (I don’t think he can be that at SS)

So, it still comes back to Holliday for me. How much does he improve or does he improve at all? If not, that may be the lineup.  If he does, then Mayo is a first baseman or a RFer, Basallo is your back up C/first base/DH guy and Westburg is your starting second baseman.

It also matters if Gunnar keeps showing as good or better range than last year.  OAA didn’t love his defense at SS. Other metrics did. I happen to think the difference lies in the middle of those 2 things.

 

Just as you suggest that I am overlooking things, I think you are overlooking the fact that Gunnar split his time between 3B and SS last year. He's now had an entire offseason to prepare as the SS, came to camp knowing that he will be the starting SS, etc. I'm with Cal on the idea of limiting how much Gunnar moves about the infield. Give me an entire year of Gunnar at SS and I bet he's in the running for a GG. Hell, he should have won it for Utility last year. 

[Sports Guy]

Just now, Can_of_corn said:

I am aware that it isn't just you.

Pretty sure you don’t. My opinion on that subject is based on how the position has been treated and how drafts treat them and scouts, etc…if it were a position treated differently, I would look at it differently. 

[Sports Guy]

1 minute ago, Can_of_corn said:

Well than I apologize for wording it poorly since you agreed with something I said that, to me, meant basically the same thing.

No, what I said is that a second baseman wouldn’t be THIS highly regarded. You just don’t see it or at least, it’s very rare.

I never said they can’t be a top 15-20 prospect.

All I have ever said about the position in terms of an argument like this is that you don’t draft a second base only guy with the first pick and you rarely, if ever, see a second base only guy as a consensus #1 prospect.

I don’t see how there is anything false with what I said there when you consider the history of these lists and the history of the draft.

[OriolesMagic83]

How about more pics, videos and current info about Holliday than arguing about whether or not he will be the O's main SS in the future.  I'm sure that Holliday will play some SS for the O's this year but am way more interested in what he is doing now. 

[Sports Guy]

3 minutes ago, banks703 said:

Just as you suggest that I am overlooking things, I think you are overlooking the fact that Gunnar split his time between 3B and SS last year. He's now had an entire offseason to prepare as the SS, came to camp knowing that he will be the starting SS, etc. I'm with Cal on the idea of limiting how much Gunnar moves about the infield. Give me an entire year of Gunnar at SS and I bet he's in the running for a GG. Hell, he should have won it for Utility last year. 

No I saw it and I don’t disagree that it may have hurt him. It’s part of the reason I don’t agree with where OAA, which is the best defensive stat imo, had him which was essentially average.  I think he’s better than that.

I don’t think he’s elite, at least he sure as hell wasn’t last year.  His arm is elite but I don’t think the rest of his defense over there is.

 

[Sports Guy]

BA had Moncada at #3 and as a third baseman in 2016.

https://www.thebaseballcube.com/content/prospects_mlb/2016~BA/

I saw an MLB list that had him 7th as a second baseman in the preseason.

Saw BP had him 7th and as a second baseman but wondered if his defense was a better fit at third vs second.

Edited February 21 by Sports Guy

[LTO's]

41 minutes ago, banks703 said:

In that world, the Orioles have no other players in their system that can play on the left side of the infield and in the event of that, they would still put Holliday at third with Gunnar staying at SS. You can keep throwing out stuff until it lands on something that supports your position in this debate if you want but only time will tell. 

In no world is this happening and this kind of take really diminishes your points. Holliday's flaw defensively *at this point* is his arm strength. There is absolutely no shot they would move him to third and leave Gunnar at SS in that scenario. That really makes no sense. 

[RZNJ]

1 hour ago, Can_of_corn said:

I don't get why folks seem so certain he can improve significantly on defense.

Defense peaks early and he's had the absolute best coaching his whole life.

This might be who he is.

 

I would guess that the number of SS who peak at 19 is somewhere between zero and zero.

[Sanity Check]

58 minutes ago, Sports Guy said:

Again, how can I be wrong about something that hasn’t even happened yet?

 

Maybe he should have said, something you could "eventually" be wrong about.  After all, how can you be right about something that hasn't happened yet, right?

The fact is, we don't know.   Everyone has their opinions.

Here's mine.  If Holliday, Henderson and Mateo are all on the roster for 2024, it's my opinion that Gunnar gets the most starts at shortstop, Mateo gets the 2nd most, and Holliday only gets a handful, max.  If Gunnar performs as well as he did in 2023 for years to come, I don't see Holliday playing much shortstop at all until it's vacant.

I would bet that the majority of posters on here don't believe that Holliday will push Gunnar to 3rd base......Gunnar will have eventually push Gunnar to 3rd base if his defense deteriorates for one reason or another.  Until then, he's the guy, and to keep Holliday in the lineup, then we slot him at 2B.

 

[banks703]

34 minutes ago, LTO's said:

In no world is this happening and this kind of take really diminishes your points. Holliday's flaw defensively *at this point* is his arm strength. There is absolutely no shot they would move him to third and leave Gunnar at SS in that scenario. That really makes no sense. 

The point is that Gunnar is far and away the superior defender at the more premier defensive position. They would not move Gunnar to a less important position is my point and valid. 

 

[Moose Milligan]

I think I'm the only one who doesn't care where he ends up in the field.  Speaking strictly for myself, I find the endless debate on here about what side of second base he stands on to be borderline insufferable.  Whatever happens, happens...and it's not like the Orioles don't have good options for wherever Holliday doesn't end up standing in the field, either.