Would You Trade Westburg for Luzardo or Cease?

[Sanity Check]

2 hours ago, DirtyBird said:

Why wouldn't we want we want a better player in that role?

Ideally, you don't want high-quality, everyday player types in reserve roles, unless they are past their prime.  Putting Westburg in that role is a waste of his potential - in my opinion - and then you ARE better off getting more trade value from him than using him part time.

[Can_of_corn]

2 minutes ago, Sanity Check said:

Ideally, you don't want high-quality, everyday player types in reserve roles, unless they are past their prime.  Putting Westburg in that role is a waste of his potential - in my opinion - and then you ARE better off getting more trade value from him than using him part time.

If they are past their prime are they high quality, everyday players?

[sportsfan8703]

1 hour ago, ShoelesJoe said:

Straight up? Sure. 

But I doubt the Marlins or White Sox would agree to that deal. 

In a package. Just meant would you be open to trading Westburg in general?

[Sanity Check]

2 hours ago, Sports Guy said:

I don’t think it’s an experiment. I don’t think there’s any doubt he can play third. The question is simply, is his defense good enough to warrant leaving Gunnar off of there long term?

Gunnar is unquestionably the better third baseman…but will he unquestionably be the better SS and will Gunnar/Mayo be a better left side than Holliday/Gunnar?  That’s the issue.

For 2024, I think you can get away with things because you will move a lot of guys around. I’m not sure I buy them doing that in 2025 and beyond.

You seem to be hooked on the idea that Gunnar is destined for third base.  I don't think that's the case.  I actually don't see Holliday ending up being the better shortstop.  I've seen both of them play live, and often, and Gunnar seems to me to be a level above Jackson......arm and range, at shortstop.  Now, if Gunnar gets too big/slow for shortstop, that's another discussion.  But, like Cal Ripken did for a really long time, I see Gunnar sticking there.

Serious question, what have you seen or witnessed in their play that makes you believe that Holliday will supplant Henderson at shortstop based on their on-field play?

[Sanity Check]

5 minutes ago, Can_of_corn said:

If they are past their prime are they high quality, everyday players?

Not any more, they are role/reserves players, like an Adam Frazier was.  What I'm saying is.....guys who are good enough to play every day (like, in my opinion, Westburg) need to play every day.  Guys who once were good enough to play every day and are declining, but still decent in some capacity that you need, those are the reserve players. 

So, past prime means a more limited role.  I apologize if any of my thoughts were confusing.

[Sports Guy]

2 minutes ago, Sanity Check said:

You seem to be hooked on the idea that Gunnar is destined for third base.  I don't think that's the case.  I actually don't see Holliday ending up being the better shortstop.  I've seen both of them play live, and often, and Gunnar seems to me to be a level above Jackson......arm and range, at shortstop.  Now, if Gunnar gets too big/slow for shortstop, that's another discussion.  But, like Cal Ripken did for a really long time, I see Gunnar sticking there.

Serious question, what have you seen or witnessed in their play that makes you believe that Holliday will supplant Henderson at shortstop based on their on-field play?

1) Holliday doesn’t have to be the better SS for it to be the best alignment.

2) Gunnar is an above average SS..but he’s not an elite, GG caliber guy, at least not right now (some act like he is)

3) Holliday needs to improve..have never said differently.  I just have zero doubt he will and that he will get to the point that, at the very least, the Os say, our best alignment is Gunnar at third and Holliday at SS because the defense of Gunnar at third is elite (or will be) and Holliday will be above average at SS.

 

The mistake people make about Holliday and his defense is acting like, at age 20, that he is what he is at SS.  I think that’s complete bs and unfair to him.

[DirtyBird]

21 minutes ago, Sanity Check said:

Ideally, you don't want high-quality, everyday player types in reserve roles, unless they are past their prime.  Putting Westburg in that role is a waste of his potential - in my opinion - and then you ARE better off getting more trade value from him than using him part time.

I’m not going to assume that both 20 year old Holliday and 22 year old Mayo will be high quality, everyday players on a contending team.

[RZNJ]

4 minutes ago, Sports Guy said:

1) Holliday doesn’t have to be the better SS for it to be the best alignment.

2) Gunnar is an above average SS..but he’s not an elite, GG caliber guy, at least not right now (some act like he is)

3) Holliday needs to improve..have never said differently.  I just have zero doubt he will and that he will get to the point that, at the very least, the Os say, our best alignment is Gunnar at third and Holliday at SS because the defense of Gunnar at third is elite (or will be) and Holliday will be above average at SS.

 

The mistake people make about Holliday and his defense is acting like, at age 20, that he is what he is at SS.  I think that’s complete bs and unfair to him.

So people here overrate Henderson at SS but you always assume he'll be elite at 3B.

What's a better alignment?  Average defense at 3B with above average at SS and 2B OR above average at 3B and 2B with average at SS?

Remember the SS is the more important position of the three.

[Sanity Check]

7 minutes ago, Sports Guy said:

1) Holliday doesn’t have to be the better SS for it to be the best alignment.

2) Gunnar is an above average SS..but he’s not an elite, GG caliber guy, at least not right now (some act like he is)

3) Holliday needs to improve..have never said differently.  I just have zero doubt he will and that he will get to the point that, at the very least, the Os say, our best alignment is Gunnar at third and Holliday at SS because the defense of Gunnar at third is elite (or will be) and Holliday will be above average at SS.

 

The mistake people make about Holliday and his defense is acting like, at age 20, that he is what he is at SS.  I think that’s complete bs and unfair to him.

I don't disagree anything you said here.  I'm thinking that Holliday  - if he makes the team as a 2nd baseman and Mateo is also on the team - won't get much of a chance to further hone his skills at shortstop much in the coming years.....unless the Orioles do not have another alternative (like Westburg or Mayo) to play 3rd base.  

I guess we'll see exactly how much shortstop time Holliday does get in the next 1-3 years.  I feel like it will be limited, but I'm not ashamed to admit that I could also be wrong about that.

[Sanity Check]

5 minutes ago, DirtyBird said:

I’m not going to assume that both 20 year old Holliday and 22 year old Mayo will be high quality, everyday players on a contending team.

Understood, but many of us hope that they are going to be just that......on our contending team.  And yes, I'm fully aware that hope is not a strategy.

That being said, I stand by my point that I believe that Westburg will be a high quality, everyday player and should not have a reserve role on the Orioles.

[Can_of_corn]

8 minutes ago, Sanity Check said:

Understood, but many of us hope that they are going to be just that......on our contending team.  And yes, I'm fully aware that hope is not a strategy.

That being said, I stand by my point that I believe that Westburg will be a high quality, everyday player and should not have a reserve role on the Orioles.

What if he's a utility guy that gets a starter's number of at bats but all over the diamond?

That's honestly where I envision him.  Start at third today, start at second tomorrow and Monday while Jackson covers Gunnar's day off.  Tuesday he's in the outfield.

[jabba72]

47 minutes ago, RZNJ said:

Really?  You think the Marlins say no to Westburg, Kjerstad,  Povich, Bradfield?

Marlins might say yes to that but thats an awful lot to give up on the O's side.

[Sports Guy]

4 minutes ago, jabba72 said:

Marlins might say yes to that but thats an awful lot to give up on the O's side.

If Luzardo was going to be the guy the next 3 years he was in 2023, you trade a lot for him.

However, he’s a big risk in that regards, so I don’t see it being worth the investment it’s likely to take to get him.

[SoxFan3344]

56 minutes ago, RZNJ said:

Really?  You think the Marlins say no to Westburg, Kjerstad,  Povich, Bradfield?

You really think Mike Elias is gonna offer that? 

[Sports Guy]

6 minutes ago, SoxFan3344 said:

You really think Mike Elias is gonna offer that? 

That’s not the point. You said Mayo or Basallo would have to be in the deal.