Jackson Holliday 2024

[banks703]

4 minutes ago, Bemorewins said:

Out of the 3 of Westburg, Holliday, and Holliday, so far Westburg is the only good defender of the 3 (at 3B). 

You talk a lot about Holliday not being a good defensive 2B after you say he has spent 3 years at the position and assert that he was a 2B growing up before moving to SS. But again Mayo has not been good defensively and he has had even longer time as a pro. And the mechanical adjustments that the Orioles have tried to fix his release haven't yielded positive results up until this point.

I'm not asserting that you are not knowledgable or don't know what you are talking about from an evaluation standpoint. However, it seems interesting to me (from your posting history) that you have two sets of criteria when evaluating the two players. One could interpret this as a double standard.

You have said you "don't see a good infielder defender in JH's profile". And that may be very well how things turn out, but do you see a good infielder defender in Mayo's profile?

Mayo has not been a good defender during his entire professional tenure (which has been longer than Holliday as he is older by a couple of years). What gives you that kind of optimism about him "improving enough to stick there long-term"? But not Holliday?

 

I've never suggested that Mayo would be a good defender at 3B. I've only stated that of the two, given the other players in the org, that I think that Mayo has the greater chance of sticking at his current position and that his physical skills lend more to that thought than does Holliday's skills. If Mayo moves to 1B, where does Kjerstad eventually go? Because he's not a major league outfielder. Where does Basallo play if he is moved from behind the plate? Where does he play if he isn't catching or DH'ing with Adley still in the org? Some of these things certainly can (and will change) if other players are moved but at present time, all things considered, I feel that Mayo has the better opportunity/chance of remaining at 3rd, especially with Gunnar on that side of the infield providing elite defense (when he doesn't kick it and throw it around like he did for a couple weeks recently). That is how I see it.

I've been pretty critical of Coby's defense as well so it's not like I am being harsh to one player and giving more grace to the other. Truthfully, I would prefer neither of them to fill either of the SS/3B/2B positions. 

[CaptainRedbeard]

Lots of drama over Holliday’s arm. Keep in mind that he had an arm injury this year, which he may not be fully recovered from, and there’s presumably a good chance he injured his arm because he’s been doing a lot of training (maybe overtraining) to improve his arm strength.

Add in the need to make some throws at different angles playing 2B (and turning double plays without momentum going to 1B) than he’a been used to as SS, plus the fact that he’s still only 20 years old and adjusting to the physical workload of a full time professional, it’s easy to see how his arm got injured and he may not be operating at 100% right now. 

He’s got terrific range at 2B and he’s a very fluid athlete. He’s got to clean up a lot of the other things that come with the position. Maybe he’s not going to be a plus defender this season. But I don’t think those issues or his arm are ultimately going to stop him from projecting as a plus defender at 2B.

[Sports Guy]

2 minutes ago, CaptainRedbeard said:

Lots of drama over Holliday’s arm. Keep in mind that he had an arm injury this year, which he may not be fully recovered from, and there’s presumably a good chance he injured his arm because he’s been doing a lot of training (maybe overtraining) to improve his arm strength.

Add in the need to make some throws at different angles playing 2B (and turning double plays without momentum going to 1B) than he’a been used to as SS, plus the fact that he’s still only 20 years old and adjusting to the physical workload of a full time professional, it’s easy to see how his arm got injured and he may not be operating at 100% right now. 

He’s got terrific range at 2B and he’s a very fluid athlete. He’s got to clean up a lot of the other things that come with the position. Maybe he’s not going to be a plus defender this season. But I don’t think those issues or his arm are ultimately going to stop him from projecting as a plus defender at 2B.

I agree.

I do think we will learn a lot more about the arm injury in the offseason. He certainly could still be some type of an issue. 
 

We just don’t Know how much it’s hurting him.  That doesn’t mean he would have some great arm right now if the injury wasn’t there. Just saying we don’t know if it’s hindering him or not,

[Sports Guy]

8 minutes ago, banks703 said:

I've never suggested that Mayo would be a good defender at 3B. I've only stated that of the two, given the other players in the org, that I think that Mayo has the greater chance of sticking at his current position and that his physical skills lend more to that thought than does Holliday's skills. If Mayo moves to 1B, where does Kjerstad eventually go? Because he's not a major league outfielder. Where does Basallo play if he is moved from behind the plate? Where does he play if he isn't catching or DH'ing with Adley still in the org? Some of these things certainly can (and will change) if other players are moved but at present time, all things considered, I feel that Mayo has the better opportunity/chance of remaining at 3rd, especially with Gunnar on that side of the infield providing elite defense (when he doesn't kick it and throw it around like he did for a couple weeks recently). That is how I see it.

I've been pretty critical of Coby's defense as well so it's not like I am being harsh to one player and giving more grace to the other. Truthfully, I would prefer neither of them to fill either of the SS/3B/2B positions. 

Gunnar is not an elite defender. Guys like Masyn Wynn, Witt and Volpe are elite. Gunnar isn’t in their class. He’s very good but he’s a step below elite. 

[banks703]

15 minutes ago, Sports Guy said:

Zero people have said he has no flaws.  Show one comment saying that.  You are crying about gaslighting but here you are.  
 

Go on, I’ll wait for you to show me those posts.

LOL

The excuse that "2B is a new position" is very much ignoring the fact that he has a flaw. And again, your reading skills are showing to be limited. I did not post that people have "said" that he has no flaws. I posted that people fail to acknowledge them. 

I know, reading is hard but this is very much YOU attempting to gaslight, per usual, as you do. 

 

 

[banks703]

9 minutes ago, CaptainRedbeard said:

Lots of drama over Holliday’s arm. Keep in mind that he had an arm injury this year, which he may not be fully recovered from, and there’s presumably a good chance he injured his arm because he’s been doing a lot of training (maybe overtraining) to improve his arm strength.

Add in the need to make some throws at different angles playing 2B (and turning double plays without momentum going to 1B) than he’a been used to as SS, plus the fact that he’s still only 20 years old and adjusting to the physical workload of a full time professional, it’s easy to see how his arm got injured and he may not be operating at 100% right now. 

He’s got terrific range at 2B and he’s a very fluid athlete. He’s got to clean up a lot of the other things that come with the position. Maybe he’s not going to be a plus defender this season. But I don’t think those issues or his arm are ultimately going to stop him from projecting as a plus defender at 2B.

The lack of arm strength conversation predates the elbow injury this year. I wrote up a pretty detailed post last year about how weak his arm is compared to other SS in the league. He does have good range but that doesn't mean much if he can't field it and can't throw it. 

[banks703]

4 minutes ago, Sports Guy said:

This is really dumb. The way you are trying to project on people your own thoughts is f’ing absurd.

No one is saying he’s a flawless player.  You are just lying.

And no one has failed to acknowledge flaws either.  They are saying they think those flaws can be corrected. Most people aren’t ready to be so close minded and over the top to assume the book is essentially closed on him. Most feel he can make big strides and show larger improvements.
 

 

LOL sure thing, pal. 

[terpoh]

3 hours ago, banks703 said:

Actually, I did play at a pretty high level and remain involved in the game in scouting college and high school kids. So, yeah.

Go back and read my post history about JH... all the way back to when they drafted him. I posted then that he was likely to end up at 2B and that I didn't rule out a move to the OF. When every one was poopooing on Cowser as an OF I am the only poster who defended his ability to play CF. There's more examples in my post history (not to pat myself on the back or toot my own horn but to show that I do know what I'm talking about). 

You all can wear your 1:1 rose colored glasses all that you want and make whatever excuses that you want to make for him but he's not a good defensive infielder and everything that I posted about him (not just his arm) we are seeing. The kids in A+ are already better defenders than he is right now. Yes, he's 20 years old and he is going to improve. My hope for him is that he can be Jose Altuve serviceable at 2B but he's never going to be a good defensive SS and I still think that a move to the OF may be best for him. The O's are obviously going to give him every opportunity to stick in the IF and when they speak about him, of course they're going to say all of the right things to keep his confidence. Every team does this with their young players. Look what the Pads did with Tatis Jr. Look what they did with their own Jackson. Did the Padres come out and say publicly that Fernando Tatis Jr. is a shit defender at SS so we have to move him to the OF? Of course they didn't. They said it was in the best interest of the player and team to limit his injury potential, etc. etc.

Those of us who refuse to acknowledge that these guys have flaws are so funny to me. It's perfectly fine if he isn't a good infield defender. His bat is why he was taken 1:1, not his glove and certainly not his arm. The posters who take the criticism of JH so personal is hilarious to me. It's almost like instead of accepting the mere suggestion that he can't play good defense at SS, is calling someone's sister a whore. 

I have never refused to acknowledge flaws in any of the guys coming up, including Jackson. Every player has flaws.

[RZNJ]

35 minutes ago, Sports Guy said:

Gunnar is not an elite defender. Guys like Masyn Wynn, Witt and Volpe are elite. Gunnar isn’t in their class. He’s very good but he’s a step below elite. 

To say he’s not in the same class as Volpe is beyond ignorant.

[Spy Fox]

20 minutes ago, RZNJ said:

To say he’s not in the same class as Volpe is beyond ignorant.

On defense? It seems at least arguable. Their career dWAR is similar (Gunnar 3, Volpe 3.5) but on OAA Volpe has a big advantage (Gunnar -1 this year/career, Volpe +9 this year/+10 career). 

 

Edited August 9 by Spy Fox

[Sports Guy]

5 minutes ago, Spy Fox said:

On defense? It seems at least arguable. Their career dWAR is similar (Gunnar 3, Volpe 3.5) but on OAA Volpe has a bit advantage (Gunnar -1 this year/career, Volpe +9 this year/+10 career). 

 

Gunnar has the far better arm but that’s about it.

Volpe actually has a +12 OAA right now.

They do have the same DRS.

Edited August 9 by Sports Guy

[RZNJ]

4 minutes ago, Spy Fox said:

On defense? It seems at least arguable. Their career dWAR is similar (Gunnar 3, Volpe 3.5) but on OAA Volpe has a bit advantage (Gunnar -1 this year/career, Volpe +9 this year/+10 career). 

 

Volpe has played 700 more innings as a SS so take that into account on the dwar.   How much do you trust OAA?     Volpe won the GG last year with a OAA of 1.   His DRS was 14.   This year is DRS is 4 and OAA is 10.

Gunnar also has a DRS of 4 but a OAA of -1.   Volpe is having a better season.   I just don’t understand anyone who watches both players and thinks Gunnar isn’t in the same class.

[Frobby]

5 minutes ago, Sports Guy said:

Gunnar has the far better arm but that’s about it.

Volpe actually has a +12 OAA right now.

They do have the same DRS.

A month ago, I looked at Gunnar’s advanced metrics compared to Volpe’s and several others’, and at the time, Gunnar had a decent GG case.  That was before Gunnar made 7 errors in 7 games.  That probably killed his GG case, though he’s still above average on several metrics.   

[banks703]

4 minutes ago, Sports Guy said:

Gunnar has the far better arm but that’s about it.

Volpe actually has a +12 OAA right now.

They do have the same DRS.

Gunnar had a bad stretch in July which ended with a -8 OAA for the month. I don't love OAA as an advanced stat but using it to declare that Volpe is elite and Gunnar isn't, but ignoring the fact that Gunnar's poor 10 or so game stretch is the source for such a wide gap between them is misleading.

 

 

 

 

[Spy Fox]

3 minutes ago, RZNJ said:

Volpe has played 700 more innings as a SS so take that into account on the dwar.   How much do you trust OAA?     Volpe won the GG last year with a OAA of 1.   His DRS was 14.   This year is DRS is 4 and OAA is 10.

Gunnar also has a DRS of 4 but a OAA of -1.   Volpe is having a better season.   I just don’t understand anyone who watches both players and thinks Gunnar isn’t in the same class.

I think the balance of that evidence shows that maybe they are close, but if one is better so far in their careers it's Volpe. I don't see how that equates to being "beyond ignorant" to say that Volpe is a level above.