Gunnar Henderson - What are the chances?

[Sports Guy]

9 minutes ago, banks703 said:

OK? We’ve had this debate and your unwillingness to acknowledge that this is a million % GM Speak (which is odd because you suggest that ME is spewing GM speak as it relates to other players but refuse it when he says it about Holliday) .. is unreasonable.

The reality is that JH in fact does not throw. It’s been well documented around here but even national writers have written about his limitations with the arm. So, was ME wrong about JH’s throwing or was he talking up a prospect?

You love to talk out of both sides of your mouth. 

The idea you think it’s GM speak makes zero sense.  Why would he try to pump up the pick(in that way)?  He could have chosen anyone he wanted.  If he didn’t feel he could stick at SS, why would he tell everyone he can and that’s a reason he took him?

He could have easily said, we feel he will be an up the middle player but the bat is too good to pass on.

There is zero reason for him to pump up the idea that he will be a SS if he didn’t believe it.  

Edited June 22 by Sports Guy

[Sports Guy]

13 minutes ago, banks703 said:

Interesting. Cause he’s now a 2B. Funny how that happened, right? And between you and me, which one of us was right about that happening, when one of us predicted it last year?

He’s at second base for now.  Gunnar may have definitely changed the plan.  Maybe Holliday has been worse than they thought.  Maybe Holliday hasn’t worked on things like they thought.  Plans can change… but the plan for when they drafted him was not to put him at second base.  That is obvious.

Edited June 22 by Sports Guy

[banks703]

2 minutes ago, Sports Guy said:

He’s at second base for now.  Gunnar may have definitely changed the plan.  Maybe Holliday has been worse than they thought.  Maybe Holliday hasn’t worked on things like they thought.  Plans can change… it the plan for when they drafted him was not to put him at second base.  That is obvious.

Again, drafting a guy and giving him every opportunity to play the position that he was ‘drafted to play’ happens with so many players. Look at Mountcastle. Drafted as a SS. Then moved to 3B where his arm was even worse than it would have been as a SS. Moved to the outfield before finally landing at First where many people predicted as far back as when he was drafted. You give a kid a chance to stick at the position he was playing when he was drafted until it becomes abundantly clear that he’s not going to stick there. Gunnar improving his consistency as a defender last year most certainly solidified his hold on the position for the foreseeable future or for as long as he is in an O’s uniform. JH will not push Gunnar to third. It will not happen. 

Typically middle infield players are taken simply because they are more skilled than say, an OF draftee. It’s seldom that a guy is drafted elsewhere and moved to middle infield but middle infielders get moved to other positions alllll the time. The list of those players is endless.

And yes, it was GM speak when they drafted him and it’s GM speak now when ME talks about him today. He’s not now and won’t ever be a ‘good’ defender at SS. He profiles best as a 2B, which is perfectly fine. His bat will play. He will likely win batting title(s).. as a 2B.

I realize that it’s impossible getting to admit when you’re wrong so I’ll go back to not participating in this ridiculous debate about JH’s prospects of playing SS..and continue to pray for your family because dealing with you in real life must be exhausting. 

[Sports Guy]

24 minutes ago, banks703 said:

OK? We’ve had this debate and your unwillingness to acknowledge that this is a million % GM Speak (which is odd because you suggest that ME is spewing GM speak as it relates to other players but refuse it when he says it about Holliday) .. is unreasonable.

The reality is that JH in fact does not throw. It’s been well documented around here but even national writers have written about his limitations with the arm. So, was ME wrong about JH’s throwing or was he talking up a prospect?

You love to talk out of both sides of your mouth. 

And btw, can you show one scout or someone in and around the game that has said his arm is not good enough to play SS?

[Sports Guy]

4 minutes ago, banks703 said:

Again, drafting a guy and giving him every opportunity to play the position that he was ‘drafted to play’ happens with so many players. Look at Mountcastle. Drafted as a SS. Then moved to 3B where his arm was even worse than it would have been as a SS. Moved to the outfield before finally landing at First where many people predicted as far back as when he was drafted. You give a kid a chance to stick at the position he was playing when he was drafted until it becomes abundantly clear that he’s not going to stick there. Gunnar improving his consistency as a defender last year most certainly solidified his hold on the position for the foreseeable future or for as long as he is in an O’s uniform. JH will not push Gunnar to third. It will not happen. 

Typically middle infield players are taken simply because they are more skilled than say, an OF draftee. It’s seldom that a guy is drafted elsewhere and moved to middle infield but middle infielders get moved to other positions alllll the time. The list of those players is endless.

And yes, it was GM speak when they drafted him and it’s GM speak now when ME talks about him today. He’s not now and won’t ever be a ‘good’ defender at SS. He profiles best as a 2B, which is perfectly fine. His bat will play. He will likely win batting title(s).. as a 2B.

I realize that it’s impossible getting to admit when you’re wrong so I’ll go back to not participating in this ridiculous debate about JH’s prospects of playing SS..and continue to pray for your family because dealing with you in real life must be exhausting. 

The idea that you think Elias has to justify the pick and lie about where he thinks Holliday will end up is stupid.  
 

You said that was the plan when they drafted him.  Thats laughably stupid.

Edited June 22 by Sports Guy

[Moose Milligan]

SG in here like 

 

[banks703]

1 minute ago, Sports Guy said:

And btw, can you show one scout or someone in and around the game that has said his arm is not good enough to play SS?

Mountcastle could play SS. He was drafted as a SS. It doesn’t mean that his arm would be good there.

I’ve posted over and over again about this. You can play JH at SS, sure but he’s not going to be a good/plus defender there.

Do your own work finding the articles that have been written about his limitations as a defender, specifically his arm. I’ve posted at least two of them in the last year during various threads. Find them if you want them. I have no doubt that I could be wrong about this but I assume that you’re an adult man with the ability to search the internet. 

[Say O!]

1 hour ago, Sports Guy said:

It depends on many factors, not all of which are specifically “is Gunnar a better SS”?

This argument is just nonsensical absurdity because no rational baseball team operates this way.  When has an MVP and GG caliber SS been displaced from the position for an inferior player and defender?  (ARod/Jeter was highly unique unicorn circumstance that is not applicable).  

[banks703]

5 minutes ago, Sports Guy said:

The idea that you think Elias has to justify the pick and lie about where he thinks Holliday will end up is stupid.  
 

You said that was the plan when they drafted him.  Thats laughably stupid.

I don’t think that ME has to justify anything. I never stated that he did. In fact I’ve stated multiple times before that he does not have to justify anything to any of us.

This is what you do when you can’t make a point in argument. Your ad hominem is tired, friend. All that you ever do in a disagreement is attack the person disagreeing with you. I feel sorry for you. I really do. Who hurt you? 
 

I’ve only stated that it’s GM speak, because it is. Not that ME has to justify anything. If you have an inability to understand the difference, that’s your problem.

And yes, the plan was to make JH play himself off of the position, which he’s done. He’s a 2B. You can continue to circle the wagons until you land on something that reinforces your position in this argument if you want but you’ll still be wrong and I’ll still be right. Every time that we see him penciled into the 4 position in the line up I’m going to mention you for your input on his play at 2B. Damn, I can’t wait to get your daily feedback on Jackson Holliday, 2B Baltimore Orioles.  

[banks703]

6 minutes ago, Say O! said:

This argument is just nonsensical absurdity because no rational baseball team operates this way.  When has an MVP and GG caliber SS been displaced from the position for an inferior player and defender?  (ARod/Jeter was highly unique unicorn circumstance that is not applicable).  

Never. But he will die on this hill because he has an inability to admit when he is wrong. I genuinely feel sorry for him. It must be a terrible way to live life everyday. 

[dystopia]

Probably only like a 10% chance. It’s entirely possible they drafted Holliday with the intention of him being the everyday SS for 5+ years. Its very unlikely he moves back though. 

[Sports Guy]

44 minutes ago, Say O! said:

This argument is just nonsensical absurdity because no rational baseball team operates this way.  When has an MVP and GG caliber SS been displaced from the position for an inferior player and defender?  (ARod/Jeter was highly unique unicorn circumstance that is not applicable).  

Teams don’t operate in doing what is in the best interest of the team?

[Say O!]

1 hour ago, Sports Guy said:

Teams don’t operate in doing what is in the best interest of the team?

Of course — which is why you ALWAYS keep the incumbent MVP and GG caliber SS at SS.  Regardless of alternatives bc there are none better (at least rational ones).

[Sports Guy]

9 minutes ago, Say O! said:

Of course — which is why you ALWAYS keep the incumbent MVP and GG caliber SS at SS.  Regardless of alternatives bc there are none better (at least rational ones).

But you don’t know that.  What if Holliday’s arm improves to the point where they believe he’s an above average SS and believe Henderson’s defense at third is much better than Westburg and that combo, along with Westburg at second, is just the better grouping?

I am not saying this will happen, I’m just saying being dismissive of it is naive imo. Holliday may be a B+ SS and Henderson may be a solid A. He if the rest if Henderson is an A+ at third and Westburg is a B, the desired defense could change.

My main point is that I think the Os will do what is best for the team and not just look at one position or one player and make their decision based on that.

Whats best very well may end up being Henderson at SS and that’s fine but I personally don’t feel that will be decided for another year or 2.

[Say O!]

7 minutes ago, Sports Guy said:

But you don’t know that.  What if Holliday’s arm improves to the point where they believe he’s an above average SS and believe Henderson’s defense at third is much better than Westburg and that combo, along with Westburg at second, is just the better grouping?

I am not saying this will happen, I’m just saying being dismissive of it is naive imo. Holliday may be a B+ SS and Henderson may be a solid A. He if the rest if Henderson is an A+ at third and Westburg is a B, the desired defense could change.

My main point is that I think the Os will do what is best for the team and not just look at one position or one player and make their decision based on that.

Whats best very well may end up being Henderson at SS and that’s fine but I personally don’t feel that will be decided for another year or 2.

Even in your theoretical vacuum of all other considerations, Elite at SS + average at 3B + plus at 2B >>>> than plus at SS, elite at 3B, average to above average at 2B.