Jump to content

Burnes certainly hasn't pitched like an ACE


Roy Firestone

Recommended Posts

23 minutes ago, RZNJ said:

Last year Burnes had a 3.98 ERA and 1.263 WHIP in August and a 2.51 ERA and a WHIP under 1 in September.    
 

Do you really think it’s about pressure?    I doubt that.   I think it’s fine to question if he is an ace or to say he’s not pitching like an ace.  Just don’t tell me he’s an ace in July, not one in August, and then an ace again in September.   Either you feel he’s an ace or you don’t.   Aces have slumps too.

It's been a long time since I felt the Orioles had a real ace, maybe all the way back to Mu$$ina. 

I have high standards for an ace. I don't think Aces wilt under the August pressure of a stretch drive. I don't think Aces give leads right back up after their teams come back for them. I don't think Aces put up 7+ ERA over a 6 start stretch in August.

You can. I have no issues if you feel Burnes is an ace because really, there is no true definition. Is he the clear #1 starter on this team, yes, he should be. Could Eflin be that guy if he returns and pitches like he did before his injury, sure. Eflin was proving to be that guy before the injury. As you said before, Burnes wasn't exactly dominating. He was pitching well, but it's not like he was going out there with unhittable stuff more times than not. 

Burnes was not missing the bats like an ace should and he has struggled in the 5th inning most of the year. 

So yes, I'm going to say Burnes is not an ace. He's solid #2 going though a rough patch.

  • Upvote 1
Link to comment
Share on other sites

3 minutes ago, Tony-OH said:

It's been a long time since I felt the Orioles had a real ace, maybe all the way back to Mu$$ina. 

I have high standards for an ace. I don't think Aces wilt under the August pressure of a stretch drive. I don't think Aces give leads right back up after their teams come back for them. I don't think Aces put up 7+ ERA over a 6 start stretch in August.

You can. I have no issues if you feel Burnes is an ace because really, there is no true definition. Is he the clear #1 starter on this team, yes, he should be. Could Eflin be that guy if he returns and pitches like he did before his injury, sure. Eflin was proving to be that guy before the injury. As you said before, Burnes wasn't exactly dominating. He was pitching well, but it's not like he was going out there with unhittable stuff more times than not. 

Burnes was not missing the bats like an ace should and he has struggled in the 5th inning most of the year. 

So yes, I'm going to say Burnes is not an ace. He's solid #2 going though a rough patch.

I’m not calling him an ace.   I just think if he has a hot September and playoff a lot of people who are saying he’s not an ace now will be calling him an ace then.   It seems like you’re open to that as well.  No?

Link to comment
Share on other sites

1 minute ago, RZNJ said:

I’m not calling him an ace.   I just think if he has a hot September and playoff a lot of people who are saying he’s not an ace now will be calling him an ace then.   It seems like you’re open to that as well.  No?

If he pitches like an ace in September and in the playoffs will I call him an ace? I'd say he pitched like an ace.

Is he a legitimate ace that you can count on to pitch a good game when you need it, he just showed us this August he was not. Honestly, while he was pitching well, he wasn't exactly dominating like aces do anyways so no, I will call him a good #2 who was pitching like an ace.

Let's hope I can say that.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

I think it is an interesting barstool topic, more about how Friedman and Driveline have goofed up baseball, to consider if Corbin Burnes is a Hall of Fame pitcher.

All these runs are being prevented*, yet no one individually does that much.    Somebody probably should be a Hall of Fame pitcher, probably not Nick Anderson or Shawn Armstrong.

Burnes is not in HOF, All-Star, or any kind of good form now but we're mostly going to remember his Oriole-dom by 1 or more postseason outcomes.    He could no hit the Yankees in the final week to clinch the division, and it'd barely register if a couple bad October games follow.

*ESPN just did a piece observing Ruth's 1921 AL hit about .050 points higher than Judge's 2024 AL, and that Babe hit about .475 the 3rd and 4th time through the order.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Looking at Burnes last 3 years, he hasn't had a month remotely close to how bad his August has been. Here are his "worst" months of those respective seasons:

  • 2021
    • June: 3.22, 1.388 WHIP, 13.7 SO/9
  • 2022
    • August: 4.81 ERA, 1.188 WHIP, 9.4 SO/9
  • 2023
    • June: 4.99 ERA, 1.174 WHIP, 8.8 SO/9

His August 2024? 7.36 ERA, 1.597 WHIP, 7.7 SO/9. 

There's nothing to like or way to sugarcoat things. He's either hurt (his velocity doesn't seem to suggest it), head isn't in it (new twins), or the O's/Burnes are trying too many things to get him right and it's messing with him. 

Yeah, it's possible that this is just a blip, and he'll rebound, but boy howdy he's atrocious now. Easily our worst pitcher this last month and it's not particularly close. 

To put things in perspective, Irvin's July was miserable and got him kicked out of the rotation and he "only" put up a 6.30 ERA during that time (with a 1.700 WHIP). 

Edited by LookitsPuck
Link to comment
Share on other sites

5 hours ago, theobird said:

This one is not on Burnes. This one is on the defense. And I know it’s not popular on here, but your ss cannot be a butcher. Henderson needs to right the ship, or he needs a new position

It's still Burnes' fault then.  If we hadn't traded for Burnes, we could play Joey Ortiz at SS.  😄

  • Haha 1
Link to comment
Share on other sites

Why throw the same exact pitch/location to Hernandez on the fourth and sixth pitch of that at bat?  Same exact curveball shape in almost the same exact location.  It stands to reason that the pitch will less effective the second time.

 

4th pitch —> https://baseballsavant.mlb.com/sporty-videos?playId=9575ccd6-9f7a-49a4-821a-4387669e6fc8

6th pitch —> https://baseballsavant.mlb.com/sporty-videos?playId=49aa5596-501d-4341-89c0-ac28594a2dfd

better result vs Ryan Bliss on July 4th —>  https://baseballsavant.mlb.com/sporty-videos?playId=9e260228-c0eb-4417-a6ac-3b5deedf6d96

Link to comment
Share on other sites

I know what Only One Oriole say:

"He's definitely not an Ace because of his leg kick to home, now if he did proper training like say a tennis player, bowler or a trotting horse........He also doesn't have a hot enough wife to be considered an Ace-she's got to be at least 9/10th's asian like my internet wife".   Now Trevor Bauer-that's an ace-look at his social media prescense-Burnes is hardly even on-line. "Oh by the way I don't miss OH at all, lots of trading going on-making millions"

  • Haha 1
Link to comment
Share on other sites

Join the conversation

You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.

Guest
Reply to this topic...

×   Pasted as rich text.   Paste as plain text instead

  Only 75 emoji are allowed.

×   Your link has been automatically embedded.   Display as a link instead

×   Your previous content has been restored.   Clear editor

×   You cannot paste images directly. Upload or insert images from URL.




  • Posts

    • dWAR is just the run value for defense added with the defensive adjustment.  Corner OF spots have a -7.5 run adjustment, while CF has a +2.5 adjustment over 150 games.    Since Cowser played both CF and the corners they pro-rate his time at each to calculate his defensive adjustment. 
    • Just to be clear, though, fWAR also includes a substantial adjustment for position, including a negative one for Cowser.  For a clearer example on that front, as the chart posted higher on this page indicates, Carlos Santana had a +14 OAA — which is the source data that fWAR’s defensive component is based on. That 14 outs above average equates to 11-12 (they use different values on this for some reason) runs better than the average 1B.  So does Santana have a 12.0 defensive value, per fWAR? He does not. That’s because they adjust his defensive value downward to reflect that he’s playing a less difficult/valuable position. In this case, that adjustment comes out to -11.0 runs, as you can see here:   So despite apparently having a bona fide Gold Glove season, Santana’s Fielding Runs value (FanGraphs’ equivalent to dWAR) is barely above average, at 1.1 runs.    Any good WAR calculation is going to adjust for position. Being a good 1B just isn’t worth as much as being an average SS or catcher. Just as being a good LF isn’t worth as much as being an average CF. Every outfielder can play LF — only the best outfielders can play CF.  Where the nuance/context shows up here is with Cowser’s unique situation. Playing LF in OPACY, with all that ground to cover, is not the same as playing LF at Fenway or Yankee Stadium. Treating Cowser’s “position” as equivalent to Tyler O’Neill’s, for example, is not fair. The degree of difficulty is much, much higher at OPACY’s LF, and so the adjustment seems out of whack for him. That’s the one place where I’d say the bWAR value is “unfair” to Cowser.
    • Wait a second here, the reason he's -0.1 in bb-ref dwar is because they're using drs to track his defensive run value.  He's worth 6.6 runs in defense according to fangraphs, which includes adjustments for position, which would give him a fangraphs defensive war of +0.7.
    • A little funny to have provided descriptions of the hits (“weak” single; “500 foot” HR). FIP doesn’t care about any of that either, so it’s kind of an odd thing to add in an effort to make ERA look bad.  Come in, strike out the first hitter, then give up three 108 MPH rocket doubles off the wall. FIP thinks you were absolutely outstanding, and it’s a shame your pathetic defense and/or sheer bad luck let you down. Next time you’ll (probably) get the outcomes you deserve. They’re both flawed. So is xFIP. So is SIERA. So is RA/9. So is WPA. So is xERA. None of them are perfect measures of how a pitcher’s actual performance was, because there’s way too much context and too many variables for any one metric to really encompass.  But when I’m thinking about awards, for me at least, it ends up having to be about the actual outcomes. I don’t really care what a hitter’s xWOBA is when I’m thinking about MVP, and the same is true for pitchers. Did you get the outs? Did the runs score? That’s the “value” that translates to the scoreboard and, ultimately, to the standings. So I think the B-R side of it is more sensible for awards.  I definitely take into account the types of factors that you (and other pitching fWAR advocates) reference as flaws. So if a guy plays in front of a particular bad defense or had a particularly high percentage of inherited runners score, I’d absolutely adjust my take to incorporate that info. And I also 100% go to Fangraphs first when I’m trying to figure out which pitchers we should acquire (i.e., for forward looking purposes).  But I just can’t bring myself say that my Cy Young is just whichever guy had the best ratio of Ks to BBs to HRs over a threshold number of innings. As @Frobby said, it just distills out too much of what actually happened.
    • We were all a lot younger in 2005.  No one wanted to believe Canseco cause he’s a smarmy guy. Like I said, he was the only one telling the truth. It wasn’t a leap of faith to see McGwire up there and Sosa up there and think “yeah, those guys were juicing” but then suddenly look at Raffy and think he was completely innocent.  It’s a sad story. The guy should be in Hall of Fame yet 500 homers and 3,000 hits are gone like a fart in the wind cause his legacy is wagging his finger and thinking he couldn’t get caught.  Don’t fly too close to the sun.  
    • I think if we get the fun sprinkler loving Gunnar that was in the dugout yesterday, I don’t think we have to worry about him pressing. He seemed loose and feeling good with the other guys he was with, like Kremer.
    • I was a lot younger back then, but that betrayal hit really hard because he had been painting himself as literally holier than thou, and shook his finger to a congressional committee and then barely 2 weeks later failed the test.
  • Popular Contributors

×
×
  • Create New...