The Albert Pujols Debate

[cindyluvsbrady]

I say my Albert is clean!

[Moose Milligan]

Not getting worked up, I just enjoy the hypocrisy of it all.

You get pretty emotional about it. What about the hypocrisy do you enjoy?

Great post, and this is exactly what I've been saying for years. It's so absurd that we (fans in general) hold different guys to different standards. We lambaste Jay Gibbons around here, but Brian Roberts is still a hero (which I think he is, but the point still applies). It makes no sense. You can't be on one side or the other based on convenience. Barry Bonds and Roger Clemens are jerks, but it doesn't mean they were "more" guilty than fun loving Manny Ramirez or men of the communities like Brian Roberts and Andy Pettitte..

It's not really absurd, it's just the way our society works.

Bonds and Clemens and that group are jerks, yes. They've never come out and admitted it despite all the rumors, accusations and evidence around them. I think Firestone had a brilliant post the other day about the arrogance in denial which holds true to both these characters. Their arrogance and refusal to admit what they did in addition to their jerk status make it really hard for anyone to root for them.

Roberts, Pettite, Giambi, A-Rod and Manny have said they were sorry. It's not a wonder as to why those guys are still employed, still playing ball and are still liked.

No one likes a jerk. No one likes a jerk and a liar, especially when there are small mountains of evidence piled up against them.

You can't lump em all together, and it's not holding anyone to a different standard. It makes absolute perfect sense.

[Moose Milligan]

Giambi and Ramirez apologized for getting caught moreso than for using PEDs, in my mind at least.

I agree with the person who said that he'll presume Pujols innocent until proven guilty. And quite frankly, even if he is eventually proven guilty it probably won't bother me all that much.

It has reached the point where I just don't care.

I agree with your take on Giambi and Ramirez, but they both apologized instead of flat out denying it and I think thats what counts in the eyes of the public.

It's not that I think Pujols did it, though I do feel a little bit of guilt by association with McGwire at the start of his career.

I just wouldn't be surprised at all. And I really wouldn't care.

[RShack]

Anymore, when the topic comes up, I just put my hands over my ears, and start saying, "La, La-La, La-La...."

[Moose Milligan]

Anymore, when the topic comes up, I just put my hands over my ears, and start saying, "La, La-La, La-La...."

Like OldFan or JTrea?

[VThokies]

I'd be absolutely shocked if he were clean.

As far as Pujols goes, I'm more inclined to side with the 'innocent until proven guilty' crowd. Should it come out that he was using, I really don't see my opinion of him changing all that much.

OTOH, are there any players out there that would absolutely shock you if they were dirty?

[Moose Milligan]

OTOH, are there any players out there that would absolutely shock you if they were dirty?

Cal and Griffey Jr.

Other than that, not really. I suppose my "absolutely shocked" statement isn't really saying "I think he did it"...cause if I think he did, I'd have no problem coming right out and saying that.

In other words what I'm trying to say is...I wouldn't be surprised. After A-Rod and Manny it wouldn't be a shock. I'd just roll my eyes and be disappointed for a bit.

[beaner]

Cal and Griffey Jr.

Other than that, not really.

Jeter too.

[Moose Milligan]

Jeter too.

Eh, maybe.

I guess I'm pretty cynical when it comes to this stuff now.

[VThokies]

Cal and Griffey Jr.

Other than that, not really. I suppose my "absolutely shocked" statement isn't really saying "I think he did it"...cause if I think he did, I'd have no problem coming right out and saying that.

In other words what I'm trying to say is...I wouldn't be surprised. After A-Rod and Manny it wouldn't be a shock. I'd just roll my eyes and be disappointed for a bit.

Those two are the same two I came up with. Though, I must admit Griffey's string of injuries seem awfully suspicious. There aren't many, if any, other players that would truly cause me much discomfort. Jeter would be up there too, beaner.

[beaner]

Eh, maybe.

I guess I'm pretty cynical when it comes to this stuff now.

Jeter would be the only one besides Cal that would shock and disappoint me. I don't really care about any of the others, but these are two guys that always played/play the game the right way, and do it right off the field as well.

[Cokeman]

As far as Pujols goes, I'm more inclined to side with the 'innocent until proven guilty' crowd. Should it come out that he was using, I really don't see my opinion of him changing all that much.

OTOH, are there any players out there that would absolutely shock you if they were dirty?

Freddie Bynum and Brandon Fahey. I mean if they did steroids, they should be given their money back at least.

[Mad Mark]

My assumption at this point is that everybody did some form of PEDs between 1995 and 2003, and that considerable numbers of players are sill doing whatever is undetectable, and that will be the status quo going forward. It's just...easier that way.

My other assumption is that the stuff that's coming is going to make steroids and HGH look like the Wright brothers' first plane compared to a stealth fighter. There are medical trials underway where heart attack victims are having their heart cells harvested to grow new heart muscle to replace scar tissue. If that works, do you think it won't be applied to other surgeries, like knees or ligament tears? Hell, within 15-20 years, people are going to be able to grow their own athlete babies. Will we be up in arms about that being "cheating"?

[SammyBirdland]

Every time I see an extremely muscular baseball player, I pretty much assume that they are juicing or have juiced at some point. I understand how much work it takes to get that muscular naturally, which makes my assumption even more unfair for those who aren't juicing.

I assume that baseball players really don't care what our perception is, considering their players' union is staunchly against blood testing for PED.

[Migrant Redbird]

.... Pujols has not won a home run title, but has won a batting title and I didn't know this until I just looked it up, his career OPS is a staggering 1058. Not many people know this (I'm sure most people on these boards do though) that he played both corner outfield positions, first and third, and even played two innings of shortstop his second year. The guy is just a phenomenal baseball player and we should believe he is innocent until the MLB suspends him for 50 games.

Pujols has not won either a home run title or an RBI title up to this point and he's only won the batting title once. In any given year, there will usually be someone putting up better numbers than Pujols in several categories. What makes Pujols truly unique is how incredibly consistent he's been.

No one in the history of baseball had ever hit over .300, hit over 30 home runs, and driven in over 100 RBIs in each of their first 3 years as a major leaguer until Pujols did it. He has now done it for 8 straight years! In addition, he has scored 100 runs in every season except 2007, when he only scored 99.

In his first 5 seasons, Pujols had 590 at bats twice, 591 at bats twice, and 592 at bats once. The last 3 years, he has fallen short of that figure because he's been on the DL a couple times.

For a player with "average at best" speed, Albert is also an incredible base runner. In 2005, he led the team with 16 stolen bases and was only caught twice, at least one of which was a busted hit and run, rather than a straight steal attempt. He's currently leading the 2009 team in steals with 10.

Albert is very aggressive on the base paths, which has caused him to run into a few outs. He also doesn't get as many walks as some other sluggers because he will expand his strike zone if he's in an RBI situation, rather than simply accept the intentional "unintentional" base on balls.

Albert was drafted as a shortstop, but soon moved to 3rd in the Cardinals minor league system. He has played both left and right field, but never seemed to develop the skill to read balls quickly off the bat. Couple with his speed, that meant that he was a mediocre outfielder.

In addition to playing a couple innings at short his sophomore season, Albert also played 2nd base last year in an emergency. If his arm had held up and the Cardinals hadn't acquired Scott Rolen, he might have been a gold glove 3rd baseman. He's a player who needs to remain at a corner infield position, unless injuries would drive him to be a DH.

None of which proves that Pujols did or did not use PEDs. Like every other player in the modern era, including Cal Jr. and Griffey Jr., he will always be under a cloud of suspicion. We can prove that a player did use steroids; we can't prove he didn't.