When will we be good again?

[MemorialStadKid]

That's what happens when you deal with young talent. I can understand the cynical attitude that you and others have. I have it at times myself. However, what I can't understand is how you and others can continue to dump all over this team and act like we haven't come a long way. Granted there's a long way to go, but let's stop acting like we are the 2002 team.

As for your laundry list of IFs, let's stop acting like we are the only ones who have a list like that. Granted the Yankees probably don't have to worry about anything but you can't in good consciousness compare our financial situation and theirs.

I am not dumping all over the team man. I love many of our players: Markakis, Roberts (my fav player), Adam Jones, Nolan, Wieters.

I DUMP ALL OVER THE FRONT OFFICE AND PETER ANGELOS. I will admit to being borderline hateful of these people because of their utter incompetence at putting together a good team year after year after year.

I get upset when people make excuses for these guys AS IF THEY DESERVE the benefit of the doubt.

They don't deserve our faith, respect, or trust. They deserve nothing but scorn from us because they have shown repeatedly that they don't care about the feelings of the fan base and actively do things to push us away (ignoring Elrod's death, raising ticket prices for walk up sales, Angelos enjoying the Red Sox and Yankees invasion and saying so in the media, constantly waiting while good players get signed by other teams when we could have easily afforded them -- and YES I know that people don't want to come to Baltimore, can you guess WHY?).

This is one of the worst front offices in the history of MLB. Angelos is widely considered one of the worst owners ever in many polls all over the place and yet, there are people here that STILL DEFEND his motives, his history and his meddling. If folks don't defend him directly, they make stupid excuses about us being such a "tiny" market and this is why we can't spend money.

I am SO tired of excuses for the FO from fans who should be smarter than this.

It seems some folks are so accustomed to losing that the mere idea of taking a risk scares them to no end and they buy into the utter stupidity of the front office.

I have ZERO love for Peter Angelos and a rapidly declining level of respect and trust in Andy MacPhail. I simply don't believe he is going to get us into the next level by playing small ball and refusing to make significant additions to the ball club.

Can anyone out there literally say that this was the best AM could have done this off season with the resources available to him?

Seriously?

UGH! I hate those guys.

MSK

[Hank Scorpio]

Some just need to go back to when the Red Sox were awful and the division wasn't the ridiculous mountain it is today.

We'll see how serious they are about competing over the next three years. I don't think judging them by this offseason is reasonable, as it was considered a horrible year for free agents.

But whatever makes you feel better, I guess.

[cindyluvsbrady]

I am not dumping all over the team man. I love many of our players: Markakis, Roberts (my fav player), Adam Jones, Nolan, Wieters.

I DUMP ALL OVER THE FRONT OFFICE AND PETER ANGELOS. I will admit to being borderline hateful of these people because of their utter incompetence at putting together a good team year after year after year.

I get upset when people make excuses for these guys AS IF THEY DESERVE the benefit of the doubt.

They don't deserve our faith, respect, or trust. They deserve nothing but scorn from us because they have shown repeatedly that they don't care about the feelings of the fan base and actively do things to push us away (ignoring Elrod's death, raising ticket prices for walk up sales, Angelos enjoying the Red Sox and Yankees invasion and saying so in the media, constantly waiting while good players get signed by other teams when we could have easily afforded them -- and YES I know that people don't want to come to Baltimore, can you guess WHY?).

This is one of the worst front offices in the history of MLB. Angelos is widely considered one of the worst owners ever in many polls all over the place and yet, there are people here that STILL DEFEND his motives, his history and his meddling. If folks don't defend him directly, they make stupid excuses about us being such a "tiny" market and this is why we can't spend money.

I am SO tired of excuses for the FO from fans who should be smarter than this.

It seems some folks are so accustomed to losing that the mere idea of taking a risk scares them to no end and they buy into the utter stupidity of the front office.

I have ZERO love for Peter Angelos and a rapidly declining level of respect and trust in Andy MacPhail. I simply don't believe he is going to get us into the next level by playing small ball and refusing to make significant additions to the ball club.

Can anyone out there literally say that this was the best AM could have done this off season with the resources available to him?

Seriously?

UGH! I hate those guys.

MSK

We agree about Elrods death!:002_scry:

[RShack]

Yes, it should not take long before a few people seek out his posts and attack him for everything he wants to say. I have found that if you don't want to discuss how great the rebuild is going, or how waiting on "name your player" then there really is not much of a chance to post here, without getting jumped on.

Well, I see you signed up in August. Don't know if you were reading stuff here before that, but I think you're kinda jumping to the wrong conclusion about this. There is a long tradition around here of criticizing the Warehouse like crazy. The tone has changed lately, and it's because people see AM doing a serious job of fixing the franchise. While I agree that the tone of lots of folks tends to be positive now, that's kinda recent, it didn't used to be that way. In fact, it used to be pretty much the opposite.

Plus, while I agree that a few posters do get somewhat hounded (and I admit that I do some of it when I get too fed up their BS), it's not because they have a negative opinion, it's because they have become cartoons of negativity by endlessly repeating the same old crap, ignoring the efforts of others to have a decent discussion, and in a couple cases by endlessly cramming dumb stuff down everybody's throat. For the most part, if you have a negative opinion and support what you say, while acknowledging the points that other folks make, you won't take a ton of crap. Maybe some, but not a lot. Anybody who expresses their opinion risks getting some crap from somebody, that's just how it goes...

[weams]

Well, I see you signed up in August. Don't know if you were reading stuff here before that, but I think you're kinda jumping to the wrong conclusion about this. There is a long tradition around here of criticizing the Warehouse like crazy. The tone has changed lately, and it's because people see AM doing a serious job of fixing the franchise. While I agree that the tone of lots of folks tends to be positive now, that's kinda recent, it didn't used to be that way. In fact, it used to be pretty much the opposite.

Plus, while I agree that a few posters do get somewhat hounded (and I admit that I do some of it when I get too fed up their BS), it's not because they have a negative opinion, it's because they have become cartoons of negativity by endlessly repeating the same old crap, ignoring the efforts of others to have a decent discussion, and in a couple cases by endlessly cramming dumb stuff down everybody's throat. For the most part, if you have a negative opinion and support what you say, while acknowledging the points that other folks make, you won't take a ton of crap. Maybe some, but not a lot. Anybody who expresses their opinion risks getting some crap from somebody, that's just how it goes...

Especially if your posts are long and full of scholarly language. :mwahaha:

[maybenxtyr]

Well, I see you signed up in August. Don't know if you were reading stuff here before that, but I think you're kinda jumping to the wrong conclusion about this. There is a long tradition around here of criticizing the Warehouse like crazy. The tone has changed lately, and it's because people see AM doing a serious job of fixing the franchise. While I agree that the tone of lots of folks tends to be positive now, that's kinda recent, it didn't used to be that way. In fact, it used to be pretty much the opposite.

Plus, while I agree that a few posters do get somewhat hounded (and I admit that I do some of it when I get too fed up their BS), it's not because they have a negative opinion, it's because they have become cartoons of negativity by endlessly repeating the same old crap, ignoring the efforts of others to have a decent discussion, and in a couple cases by endlessly cramming dumb stuff down everybody's throat. For the most part, if you have a negative opinion and support what you say, while acknowledging the points that other folks make, you won't take a ton of crap. Maybe some, but not a lot. Anybody who expresses their opinion risks getting some crap from somebody, that's just how it goes...

I have been reading here for years, and really enjoy it. I just don't post because the new stat tools are a little above what an old man can do with a computer. However, waiting for Boston, and New York, to come down from the level that they are on just will not suffice.

[MemorialStadKid]

Well, I see you signed up in August. Don't know if you were reading stuff here before that, but I think you're kinda jumping to the wrong conclusion about this. There is a long tradition around here of criticizing the Warehouse like crazy. The tone has changed lately, and it's because people see AM doing a serious job of fixing the franchise. While I agree that the tone of lots of folks tends to be positive now, that's kinda recent, it didn't used to be that way. In fact, it used to be pretty much the opposite.

One question: Is the critique unjustifiable and/or unreasonable?

MSK

[MemorialStadKid]

Yes, it should not take long before a few people seek out his posts and attack him for everything he wants to say. I have found that if you don't want to discuss how great the rebuild is going, or how waiting on "name your player" then there really is not much of a chance to post here, without getting jumped on.

You pretty much hit the nail on the head.

Rep to you.

I just don't understand why people still give Angelos any faith. That's the one thing that totally burns me up.

MacPhail, to me, has done some decent stuff with the farm, but we have a long way to go, and I still disagree with his hyper-conservatism when it comes to making moves in the free agent market.

Lately, its become a superficial battle of "sign free agents vs. just wait for MacPhail to fix everything" and it misses the central point that this team has many many holes that need to be fixed.

Who's in charge of that?

MacPhail and Angelos.

Until they fix the holes and make us competitive, I have no faith in anything they say.

MSK

[RShack]

One question: Is the critique unjustifiable and/or unreasonable?

MSK

Well, critique is not the same thing as just criticism and nothing else. Critique implies that you're assessing the pro's and the con's.

As for whether the previous negative attitude and/or the current positive attitude are justified, I think both are.

The main thing I didn't like about the previous negative attitude is that I thought Flanny took too much crap for stuff that wasn't really his fault. But that's based on my opinion that he had one arm tied behind his back because PA didn't give him the same authority that he apparently has granted AM. I think Flanny basically knew what needed doing. I am 100% sure that he wasn't given free reign to fix it. I also think he probably didn't know exactly how to go about it as much as AM does, and maybe was in a little bit over his head, even if he had free reign. But none of that changes the fact that the franchise was crappy. I just think Flanny got a raw deal, that's all. We don't talk about "True Orioles" the way MFY fans talk about "True Yankees", but I think Flanny is indeed a True Oriole as much as anybody and way more than most, and I hope he can somehow be involved in a way that is useful and that he feels good about.

[Mark Carver]

They don't deserve our faith, respect, or trust. They deserve nothing but scorn from us because they have shown repeatedly that they don't care about the feelings of the fan base and actively do things to push us away (ignoring Elrod's death, raising ticket prices for walk up sales, Angelos enjoying the Red Sox and Yankees invasion and saying so in the media, constantly waiting while good players get signed by other teams when we could have easily afforded them -- and YES I know that people don't want to come to Baltimore, can you guess WHY?).

Ok, I'll bite, but how did the Orioles front office ignore Elrod Hendricks death?

[Lucky Jim]

Until they fix the holes and make us competitive, I have no faith in anything they say.

MSK

Kind of puts you in the same position as folks who make bets with you, no?

[MemorialStadKid]

Well, critique is not the same thing as just criticism and nothing else. Critique implies that you're assessing the pro's and the con's.

As for whether the previous negative attitude and/or the current positive attitude are justified, I think both are.

The main thing I didn't like about the previous negative attitude is that I thought Flanny took too much crap for stuff that wasn't really his fault. But that's based on my opinion that he had one arm tied behind his back because PA didn't give him the same authority that he apparently has granted AM. I think Flanny basically knew what needed doing. I am 100% sure that he wasn't given free reign to fix it. I also think he probably didn't know exactly how to go about it as much as AM does, and maybe was in a little bit over his head, even if he had free reign. But none of that changes the fact that the franchise was crappy. I just think Flanny got a raw deal, that's all. We don't talk about "True Orioles" the way MFY fans talk about "True Yankees", but I think Flanny is indeed a True Oriole as much as anybody, and I hope he can somehow be involved in a way that is useful and that he feels good about.

That was an excellent answer. No argument there.

I guess my problem is that I see way too much excuse-making for the FO when there usually can't be any other explanation for their actions other than incompetence, laziness or disinterest in the franchise by ownership.

Not returning calls to agents and other owners (per various secondhand reports), not attending scouting sessions, not stepping into the international arena until very recently for no apparent reason, letting the spring training complex issue fester for so long that many options begin to disappear or become more difficult to obtain, the ignoring of fan protest and unrest about the lack of direction for many years, ignoring all legitimate critiques by the local and national sports media about the team regardless of how valid the concerns were, and continuing to promise to bring a winner to Baltimore every single off season and still doing nothing are some of my key issues with this FO.

Am I making any of this up?

MSK

[crawjo]

The point is that you have to be intelligent in discussing how the Orioles actually get better. You have to look at the Orioles revenues versus other teams and understand that they aren't going to win by spending a lot of money on free agents. You have to argue about solutions that make sense within the context of what's possible, rather than *****ing and moaning in generalities that evade the hard facts that govern the decisions the franchise makes.

For instance, if I had been AM, I would have gone into this offseason with the thought that Felix Pie was going to be my everyday centerfielder in 2010, and Adam Jones was going to be traded for a star first baseman, if the move was out there to be made. The FAs that were out there were not worth the money anyway. That would have been my move. It would have been very risky and I can see a million reasons why people would disagree with it. The fact that AM apparently thought differently does not make me think he is a bad GM. I happen to think he is a very good one.

People complain that he is not aggressive enough, but then I read somebody post here that the Orioles will never win until they double the bid of the Yankees for a big free agent. That would be like giving Teixeira 8 years, $360 million. It's absurd. Give me the methodical strategy of stockpiling the system with talent over that sort of circus every ****ing day of the week.

Similarly, arguing that Angelos is now blocking the Orioles from winning is also, to my mind, ignorant. What has he done since AM took over to impede this franchise? Where has he refused to pay out money for big contracts that the front office demanded he pay? Where has he meddled with the day-to-day operations of the franchise?

The problem with these threads is that they act as if we are still in the Syd Thrift era, which means either the people who start them are not paying attention or they are stuck in a particular way of thinking.

If people want to root for a winner, root for the Yankees. Even if the Orioles doubled their revenue stream, the odds that they will win as many championships, or even half as many championships, as the Yankees over the rest of our natural lives is extremely slim. If its a bunch of parades, rings, and flags you want to see, take your sympathies to the Bronx.

[Since66]

Deep in the throes of winter, every year here, negativism rears it's ugly head. Since we didn't do enough to improve ourselves this off-season, let's just call the whole season off. I'd much rather post endlessly about perceived short-comings and wait for 2011. Hell, right now we are tied for first.

[BaltimoreTerp]

I have been reading here for years, and really enjoy it. I just don't post because the new stat tools are a little above what an old man can do with a computer. However, waiting for Boston, and New York, to come down from the level that they are on just will not suffice.

You shouldn't let that stop you. Most of the stats that get used are either freely available themselves or available as explanations of what they mean. That's how I learned most of it, and I had no clue about any of that when I got here

And I can assure you that no one believes we are waiting for the Yankees and Red Sox to come back to us. The idea is that you can't assume that those teams will always be good, and even if they have the money to keep getting better the only way to match is to build from the farm system and add guys that make sense when it makes sense for money that makes sense.