When will we be good again?

[JTrea81]

The problem with these threads is that they act as if we are still in the Syd Thrift era, which means either the people who start them are not paying attention or they are stuck in a particular way of thinking.

Interesting you say that because Thrift and MacPhail are both micro-managing Orioles GM's who had success early and weren't able to ever repeat it. It's been said about both that they are "my way or the highway" type of people.

Now MacPhail isn't senile, but he seems very close-minded and unwilling to deviate from a plan that has not been proven to achieve sustained success no matter how many opportunties present themselves to do so.

[weams]

Thrift and MacPhail are both micro-managing Orioles GM's who had success early and weren't able to ever repeat it.

Untrue.

It's been said about both that they are "my way or the highway" type of people.

Who, link please.

Now MacPhail isn't senile, but he seems very closed-minded and unwilling to deviate from a plan that has not been proven to achieve sustained success no matter how many opportunities present themselves to do so.

Just playing grammar/spelling police

[RShack]

No argument there.

Just proves that we can agree about some things ;-)

I guess my problem is that I see way too much excuse-making for the FO when there usually can't be any other explanation for their actions other than incompetence, laziness or disinterest in the franchise by ownership.

But we're not gonna agree about this.

The bolded part is where I think you are wrong. I think you have programmed yourself to filter out ways they can be explained, and you just insist that it's about the negative things you listed, which IMO you just make up out of nothing these days. The fact that it is certainly arguable that they may have been true before is irrelevant to today. I think you start from a belief that those things guide the franchise, and then you interpret almost everything in a way that fits with the idea you started with. For some of the examples you listed, I could provide you with alternate explanations, but that would not do any good because I know that you have already been presented with them, and you arbitrarily choose to pretend that you have not been, even though you have been.

[Bradysburns]

You mean other than lobbing general insults toward the membership and acting like you are the only one receiving these divine revelations over how bad the Orioles have been? No, nothing different at all.

I'm a Carl fan. He's the Ed Anger of the OH!

We need some crusty East Baldemer "calls em like I sees em" stuff on here. Sometimes this board gets a bit too nerdy! I have participated in that nerdiness, and will continue to do so... But I say Carl... let 'er rip, pal! Talk about how Cal should own the team... tell us about the days of Wee Willie Keelor! Complain about the lines at Boog's on game days! Remind us how great it was to sit behind the pillars at Memorial Stadium back in the day!

[weams]

I'm a Carl fan. He's the Ed Anger of the OH!

We need some crusty East Baldemer "calls em like I sees em" stuff on here. Sometimes this board gets a bit too nerdy! I have participated in that nerdiness, and will continue to do so... But I say Carl... let 'er rip, pal! Talk about how Cal should own the team... tell us about the days of Wee Willie Keelor! Complain about the lines at Boog's on game days! Remind us how great it was to sit behind the pillars at Memorial Stadium back in the day!

I liked the pillars. And Frank hit it into the Parking lot.

[tntoriole]

In the AL East, it is possible to be over .500 and still not be playing meaningful games in August and September. Right now, I'd settle for over .500. I think it could happen this season, though I would say the odds are against it. Next year I'd hope to be well over .500 and playing meaningful games deep into September.

The fans in Pittsburgh and Kansas City probably say the same thing every year....there is no way the team as currently made up comes anywhere close to .500 this year in the AL East- 70 wins much more likely...and unless all of this much hyped "core" magically turn into superstars, they will not be close to .500 in 2011 either...

But by then Macphail will be off to the Commissioner's job and we can start another "plan" with the next GM..

The AL East is fixed...Yankees, Boston...that's it....occasional Tampa Bay- type upstart will happen, but that is not going to be maintained over more than a year or two..

[El Gordo]

The fans in Pittsburgh and Kansas City probably say the same thing every year....there is no way the team as currently made up comes anywhere close to .500 this year in the AL East- 70 wins much more likely...and unless all of this much hyped "core" magically turn into superstars, they will not be close to .500 in 2011 either...

But by then Macphail will be off to the Commissioner's job and we can start another "plan" with the next GM..

The AL East is fixed...Yankees, Boston...that's it....occasional Tampa Bay- type upstart will happen, but that is not going to be maintained over more than a year or two..

Really, no way at all? Instead of making these hyperbolic pronouncements, why don't you give us your predictions for this much hyped core's numbers next season, to show how there is no way. What is Wieters OPS next season, in your opinion? Remold, Jones etc.?

[Moose Milligan]

I am not dumping all over the team man. I love many of our players: Markakis, Roberts (my fav player), Adam Jones, Nolan, Wieters.

That's cool.

I DUMP ALL OVER THE FRONT OFFICE AND PETER ANGELOS. I will admit to being borderline hateful of these people because of their utter incompetence at putting together a good team year after year after year.

I get upset when people make excuses for these guys AS IF THEY DESERVE the benefit of the doubt.

Interesting. The very same front office who, for example, gave your favorite player a big contract?

They don't deserve our faith, respect, or trust. They deserve nothing but scorn from us because they have shown repeatedly that they don't care about the feelings of the fan base and actively do things to push us away (ignoring Elrod's death, raising ticket prices for walk up sales, Angelos enjoying the Red Sox and Yankees invasion and saying so in the media, constantly waiting while good players get signed by other teams when we could have easily afforded them -- and YES I know that people don't want to come to Baltimore, can you guess WHY?).

So...you want us to spend big bucks on FA's, right? But you don't want to pay 2 bucks more for a walkup ticket? How are we supposed to afford the Teixeria's of the world?

I hate to say this as there's a tragedy in Haiti and our economy is in the toilet...but...it's 2 bucks. There's a lot of things in this world that 2 bucks can't get you. If you're flipping out over raising the prices of walkup sales by 2 bucks, then perhaps you shouldn't be going to games in the first place...in other words, maybe your financial situation is such that your money for a ticket to an O's game is better spent elsewhere. I don't like being that blunt, but it's true.

How'd they ignore Elrod's death? How'd did that push any single one of us away?

And while you and I don't like the fact that Sox and Yanks fans invade our stadium, it is good for ticket sales, like it or not. That's money going into the Orioles pockets. Again, I don't like seeing the stadium full of opposing fans but from a strictly business standpoint I can see why it's a good thing. And again, I hate being that blunt.

No, no one wants to come here and it's because we suck. And you don't know for a fact who we can afford and who we can't, so please stop acting like you do. Unless you can provide evidence to the Orioles financials and show me a budget, I'll continue to think that you know as much as I do in this arena which is precisely squat.

This is one of the worst front offices in the history of MLB. Angelos is widely considered one of the worst owners ever in many polls all over the place and yet, there are people here that STILL DEFEND his motives, his history and his meddling. If folks don't defend him directly, they make stupid excuses about us being such a "tiny" market and this is why we can't spend money.

I am SO tired of excuses for the FO from fans who should be smarter than this.

Not sure about the HISTORY of MLB, but it is a bad one...but it's ignorant to think that it can't change. I've yet to see anyone on here say that this is a "tiny" market...I have, however, seen people want to be fiscally responsible and I have no problem with that whatsoever. If you want to know why, look at our government. If that's not good enough, look at the Detroit Tigers and the talent they're having to unload because they can't afford it.

It seems some folks are so accustomed to losing that the mere idea of taking a risk scares them to no end and they buy into the utter stupidity of the front office.

This might be the most ridiculous part of your whole rant. If banking on the success of a bunch of young, promising players isn't the definition of "risk" I'm not sure what is.

I have ZERO love for Peter Angelos and a rapidly declining level of respect and trust in Andy MacPhail. I simply don't believe he is going to get us into the next level by playing small ball and refusing to make significant additions to the ball club.

Can anyone out there literally say that this was the best AM could have done this off season with the resources available to him?

Seriously?

UGH! I hate those guys.

MSK

RRRRAAAAAAAAAARRRRR!!!!!

Because I'm sure MacPhail and Angelos really want to lose and are happy with the status quo. Do you honestly believe this? I'm sure they're not motivated to create a winner cause creating a winner would put more asses in the seats and make the franchise more money.

And who'd want that?

[MikeAD]

When we start winning more games.

[TonySoprano]

Especially if your posts are long and full of sophistry

Took the liberty of editing that for you;)

[cindyluvsbrady]

Ok, I'll bite, but how did the Orioles front office ignore Elrod Hendricks death?

I miss Elrod:002_scry:

This is complicted..too painful to talk about:002_scry:

[better]

When Peter Angelos and/or Andy MacPhail are no longer part of the organization.

As long as both of those people are in the organization, the Orioles will never commit the resources or take the risks neccessary to compete in the AL East IMO.

I really hope AM takes the commissioner's job after 2011 so we can get a GM in here that is willing to spend Angelos' money and take some risks to get the talent that we need. MacPhail is holding us back IMO.

Who is this successor GM you keep talking about?!

[ChesterPeake]

I think it's time for all of us to recognize and accept the probability that AM has a longer rebuilding timeframe in mind than we do. It's now pretty clear to me that the O's plan for the 2010 season is solely to find out what we have in the young players and, as a result, what we need going forward.

Despite what AM may have said about more emphasis on winning this season, that apparently doesn't mean signing any real difference makers in Free Agency in 2010. We'll have to depend on the improvement of the young players on the roster to earn more wins this season.

With the above in mind, I think we can expect to finish under .500 again this season. There's a slim possibility that we can add enough needed pieces before next season to finish at or slightly above .500 in 2011. So, it looks to me like AM is targeting 2012 as the start of the new Orioles Dynasty.

[mikezpen]

As long as both of those people are in the organization, the Orioles will never commit the resources or take the risks neccessary to compete in the AL East IMO.

I really hope AM takes the commissioner's job after 2011 so we can get a GM in here that is willing to spend Angelos' money and take some risks to get the talent that we need. MacPhail is holding us back IMO.

As long as Angelos is here, any really good Orioles team will be an accident. I don't believe he will spend what it takes. We've had two-count 'em, TWO-major free agents since the Palmiero signing in 1993-94 off season.And looking what they've drafted since Matusz, I'd say that cheapness has extended down into the draft, too. Angelos seems reluctant to spend big bucks on untried talent even though his best two players were exactly that when they were drafted.

I disagree about MacPhail though. He's a tremendous executive who has done much to build this organization.I think he's thwarted by the owner to some extent. If he goes, all you'll have is a puppet GM who does next to nothing. That's what you had before.

To me, a "good" team is a contender, not one that wins 85 games.I see no difference in watchability between a team that wins 85 and one that wins 65. I acknowledge that seems unreasonable, particularly to the younger posters here who have never seen a really quality Orioles team. But I saw 6 World Series appearances and three championships, and my standards are a lot higher.

[weams]

Who is this successor GM you keep talking about?!

Omar Minaya