The Curious Case of Nick Markakis

[Old#5fan]

Yes. It was a regular practice for one HOF hitter. Which proves what, exactly? It clearly wasn't the practice for any number (i.e., the majority) of other HOF hitters. In the end, taking the first pitch might be a good strategy for some HOF hitters. It may be a good strategy for some non-HOF hitters. Not taking the first pitch and driving it was likewise a good strategy for some HOF hitters. As well as some non-HOF hitters.

Nick is a very different hitter than Boggs. I'm not saying he's as good as Boggs - who was my favorite non-Oriole growing up - but to draw a qualitiative assessment from the information you have reveals someone who doesn't get even the rudiments of logic.

Do you really think that all other HOF hitters could have utilized Boggs' approach and still had the level of success that they did? If not, your point proves - again - literally nothing.

You condescend so often on here about what is elementary, or simple, or easily apparent. But the only things elementary, simple, and easily apparent are the severe limitations in your cognitive ability.

Wow, what a reach! Please show me where I said any HOF hitter other than Boggs rarely swung at the first pitch (although no doubt there could be others). I was merely pointing out that taking the first pitch routinely isn't necessarily a bad thing for a hitter as evidenced by Boggs. No more no less. Now you are trying to make a Fedaral case out it it for some bizarre reason! Ye Gods, what is wrong with you?

[Lucky Jim]

I was merely pointing out that taking the first pitch routinely isn't necessarily a bad thing for a hitter as evidenced by Boggs. No more no less. Now you are trying to make a Fedaral case out it it for some bizarre reason! Ye Gods, what is wrong with you?

Here's what you wrote:

Wasn't this exactly how Wade Boggs hit? He seldom if ever swung on the first pitch as I recall. I also don't recall him having much problem hitting lefties either. So if your argument is this is a bad approach for a great hitter, I disagree. It however may well be a bad approach for someone who is not a great hitter, that I would agree. So in essence you seem to be inferring that NM is not a great hitter eh?

:scratchchinhmm:

Do you even read what you write? Or does it spill out in some kind of logorrheic purging?

I was responding to exactly what you said: if Boggs could do it, and Nick can't, it's evidence that Nick isn't a great hitter.

By the way, you need to look up the difference between infer and imply. The mistake you made is made by dolts the English-speaking world over.

Once again, I present what should be your avatar:

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[Old#5fan]

Here's what you wrote:

Do you even read what you write? Or does it spill out in some kind of logorrheic purging?

I was responding to exactly what you said: if Boggs could do it, and Nick can't, it's evidence that Nick isn't a great hitter.

By the way, you need to look up the difference between infer and imply. The mistake you made is made by dolts the English-speaking world over.

I am sorry you think I or anyone else is a "dolt" here as you so nicely term it. You need to learn how to communicate with someone in human being normal conversational terms. Your style of communicating has to make you the most condescending poster here bar none. If you actually speak like this in real life, I am surprised you aren't walking around with half a mouth full of teeth and your jaw constantly wired shut. I don't need your crap, today is my birthday and you aren't going to ruin it.

The point I was making is that if Markakis is supposed to be a great hitter it shouldn't matter whether he takes the first pitch more often than not. Boggs did it and he was a great hitter. If Markakis has so many problems in taking first pitches or not taking them it just tells me he isn't what you and many here think he is. Deal with it. Its the truth so open your eyes for once instead of insulting those who do.

[Lucky Jim]

You need to learn how to communicate with someone in human being normal conversational terms.

This is a fantastically ironic sentence.

As for the other stuff - meh. Your passive-aggressive trolling brings out the worst in a lot of folks. Me included.

[VTmook213]

I am sorry you think I or anyone else is a "dolt" here as you so nicely term it. You need to learn how to communicate with someone in human being normal conversational terms. Your style of communicating has to make you the most condescending poster here bar none. If you actually speak like this in real life, I am surprised you aren't walking around with half a mouth full of teeth and your jaw constantly wired shut. I don't need your crap, today is my birthday and you aren't going to ruin it.

The point I was making is that if Markakis is supposed to be a great hitter it shouldn't matter whether he takes the first pitch more often than not. Boggs did it and he was a great hitter. If Markakis has so many problems in taking first pitches or not taking them it just tells me he isn't what you and many here think he is. Deal with it. Its the truth so open your eyes for once instead of insulting those who do.

Now that's ironic.

[Old#5fan]

Now that's ironic.

I seldom to my recollection have ever name called anyone here although I am sure that right now someone no doubt is scurrying at a feverish pace doing a search of my over 5,000 posts to find some sort of evidence to prove me wrong, even if it is an isolated situation where I was being attacked and provoked to the point of defending myself.

I stand by my allegation that this guy doesn't post like a regular human being, rather more like some sort of robotic version of Webster's dictionary and their Thesaurus rolled into one. If he went into any sports bar I have ever visited and talked like that he would be thrown out on his ear in all of about 30 seconds!

As a 55 year old mature citizen I know this guy is immature because if one is truly intelligent they don't need to try to continually prove it by the use of pedantic language and words that most "normal" people don't use nor care to use in a standard conversation. :rolleyestf: To me this is the heighth of arrogance combined with intellectual dishonesty because anyone with true knowledge speaks to the level of his audience, not down to them as if they are some form of lower level of intelligence and humanity. I had him on ignore before and back there he goes again only this time permanently.

[SilentJames]

I seldom to my recollection have ever name called anyone here although I am sure that right now someone no doubt is scurrying at a feverish pace doing a search of my over 5,000 posts to find some sort of evidence to prove me wrong, even if it is an isolated situation where I was being attacked and provoked to the point of defending myself.

I stand by my allegation that this guy doesn't post like a regular human being, rather more like some sort of robotic version of Webster's dictionary and their Thesaurus rolled into one. If he went into any sports bar I have ever visited and talked like that he would be thrown out on his ear in all of about 30 seconds!

As a 55 year old mature citizen I know this guy is immature because if one is truly intelligent they don't need to try to continually prove it by the use of pedantic language and words that most "normal" people don't use nor care to use in a standard conversation. :rolleyestf: To me this is the heighth of arrogance combined with intellectual dishonesty because anyone with true knowledge speaks to the level of his audience, not down to them as if they are some form of lower level of intelligence and humanity.

You know, I was going to walk away from this. I was going to let this one go but you, you saying this is the height of hysterics. Please Old Fan, your posts are the most condescending dribble ever posted on this board. Every other post you assail people's intelligence for not seeing your "elementary" points.

The bottom line is this: Your points are the worst type of conjecture. When refuted by solid facts and figures you retreat into your usual trope of "I'm older and therefore..." nonsense.

You know what intelligent people don't do? Use little smiley faces and emoticons (god I hate that word) at the end of every sentence to drill home yet another half-baked, superficial theory. Real adults admit when they are wrong, yet you insist that 2+2 continues to equal 5 in many respects.

I understand full well that I may earn myself a vacation for this post, but it needs to be done. People have tried to have real conversations with you, but your childish actions require this.

Thrown out of any sports bar, please. Just because someone knows how to speak the language doesn't mean they aren't "normal". I mean I know that must be hard in West Virginia and all but around here the people that get thrown out of sports bars aren't the people with $20 vocab words, its people like you.

[WildDave]

Not to get away from the scintillating point/counterpoint of "yes you are, no I'm not", but I was wondering about Nick Markakis. Remember him?

Is it possible that his good numbers hitting lower down in the order are because it is more difficult to play matchups with someone hitting second than farther up? I can't really come up with a theory for why players would hit better at different spots otherwise. Someone enlighten me.

[Old#5fan]

You know, I was going to walk away from this. I was going to let this one go but you, you saying this is the height of hysterics. Please Old Fan, your posts are the most condescending dribble ever posted on this board. Every other post you assail people's intelligence for not seeing your "elementary" points.

The bottom line is this: Your points are the worst type of conjecture. When refuted by solid facts and figures you retreat into your usual trope of "I'm older and therefore..." nonsense.

You know what intelligent people don't do? Use little smiley faces and emoticons (god I hate that word) at the end of every sentence to drill home yet another half-baked, superficial theory. Real adults admit when they are wrong, yet you insist that 2+2 continues to equal 5 in many respects.

I understand full well that I may earn myself a vacation for this post, but it needs to be done. People have tried to have real conversations with you, but your childish actions require this.

Thrown out of any sports bar, please. Just because someone knows how to speak the language doesn't mean they aren't "normal". I mean I know that must be hard in West Virginia and all but around here the people that get thrown out of sports bars aren't the people with $20 vocab words, its people like you.

This sounds precisely like someone who probably would be scared out of his mind to even set foot into half of the places I have been in. Back in my day, a joint was still a bad place to be. That is where I cut my teeth so to speak, and yes, whiny know-it-alls who think they are better than average people when it comes to talking sports would get their proverbial asses kicked in a heartbeat. Again, that is not how anyone I know speaks in a conversation and I have been all over the U.S. in my 55 years. You go into a bar talking like that and first you would be laughed and and then if you continued you would be thrown out on your ear (and lucky to still have both of them)!:laughlol:

[SilentJames]

Not to get away from the scintillating point/counterpoint of "yes you are, no I'm not", but I was wondering about Nick Markakis. Remember him?

Is it possible that his good numbers hitting lower down in the order are because it is more difficult to play matchups with someone hitting second than farther up? I can't really come up with a theory for why players would hit better at different spots otherwise. Someone enlighten me.

There is a difference between say hitting fourth and hitting first.

You want high OBP guys in the first and last lineup spots. You want power hitters in the four-six spots.

But the argument over 2-3 is really blown out of proportion in my mind. Yes, there is some technical difference, but I think a lot of it is mental.

Now, there is an argument that says that is enough. AS we all know: "you never mess with a streak, if you think you are hitting because you are getting laid then you are. If you think it is because you aren't then you are right."

If you think you are succeeding because you are batting second rather than third, then dang it you are.

[BRobinsonfan]

Not to get away from the scintillating point/counterpoint of "yes you are, no I'm not", but I was wondering about Nick Markakis. Remember him?

Is it possible that his good numbers hitting lower down in the order are because it is more difficult to play matchups with someone hitting second than farther up? I can't really come up with a theory for why players would hit better at different spots otherwise. Someone enlighten me.

Go back and read all the posts by KAZ97 and Drungo before the thread was sadly derailed by "the Black Knight." (aka Old#5Fan)

[Lucky Jim]

I stand by my allegation that this guy doesn't post like a regular human being, rather more like some sort of robotic version of Webster's dictionary and their Thesaurus rolled into one. If he went into any sports bar I have ever visited and talked like that he would be thrown out on his ear in all of about 30 seconds!

You can stand by your allegations all you like. My tone and word choice on here isn't reflective of what I use elsewhere. It's a written environment, and I treat it accordingly.

You don't really know anything about me, O5F. I understand that you're confident discussing things with surety that you don't know or comprehend, but you should realize that it's not an equal source of comfort for your readers.

[Old#5fan]

Not to get away from the scintillating point/counterpoint of "yes you are, no I'm not", but I was wondering about Nick Markakis. Remember him?

Is it possible that his good numbers hitting lower down in the order are because it is more difficult to play matchups with someone hitting second than farther up? I can't really come up with a theory for why players would hit better at different spots otherwise. Someone enlighten me.

One reason is that on most teams (not necessarily the Orioles though) the second hitter is going to get better pitches to hit than the third hitter. Why, because the pitcher doesn't want to walk the two hitter so the better guy coming up could drive him home. Ergo, he takes his chances by throwing more strikes. This practice usually effects mainly hitters one-four, with each hitter getting progressively more dangerous (think of the Yankees or Boston instead of the O's).

A big reason I see NM hitting better batting second is he would get better pitches to hit. However, when he was moved to third with the slumping Huff hitting behind him, he was not getting as many good pitches to hit because pitchers were more worried about NM hurting them than than Huff. Couple this with the fact that with Huff slumping NM felt even more pressure to produce and you see why he fell off last year. At least this is a plausible explanation if you truly believe he fell off.

I hope this helps.

[SilentJames]

This sounds precisely like someone who probably would be scared out of his mind to even set foot into half of the places I have been in. Back in my day, a joint was still a bad place to be. That is where I cut my teeth so to speak, and yes, whiny know-it-alls who think they are better than average people when it comes to talking sports would get their proverbial asses kicked in a heartbeat. Again, that is not how anyone I know speaks in a conversation and I have been all over the U.S. in my 55 years. You go into a bar talking like that and first you would be laughed and and then if you continued you would be thrown out on your ear (and lucky to still have both of them)!:laughlol:

Well you can continue to hang out at the Double Deuce all you want there Dalton. I'm sure its a wonderful land with a chicken-wire cage and a bar fight over someone's "lil' Mama" every other Saturday night.

[SilentJames]

One reason is that on most teams (not necessarily the Orioles though) the second hitter is going to get better pitches to hit than the third hitter. Why, because the pitcher doesn't want to walk the two hitter so the better guy coming up could drive him home. Ergo, he takes his chances by throwing more strikes. This practice usually effects mainly hitters one-four, with each hitter getting progressively more dangerous (think of the Yankees or Boston instead of the O's).

A big reason I see NM hitting better batting second is he would get better pitches to hit. However, when he was moved to third with the slumping Huff hitting behind him, he was not getting as many good pitches to hit because pitchers were more worried about NM hurting them than than Huff. Couple this with the fact that with Huff slumping NM felt even more pressure to produce and you see why he fell off last year. At least this is a plausible explanation if you truly believe he fell off.

I hope this helps.

http://www.baseball-reference.com/players/split.cgi?n1=markani01&year=Career&t=b#lineu

Markakis has hit for a higher OPS in the two hole, but he has hit for much more power in the number three slot. So pick your poison.

The flaw in your argument, surprising, is that a pitcher doesn't want to walk anyone, let alone the two or three hole. Any time you walk a batter you risk the next batter driving in a run.

Your logic is flawed.