Kurkjian on Raffy

[DrungoHazewood]

All sports (and games in general) have legal and illegal cheating and baseball has drawn it's line in the sand. Comparing Perry's spitter to using a needle is simply not comprehending the complexity.

That said, I agree he should get in. Steroids were not against the rules in the majority of his era and were widely accepted and encouraged. Perhaps it's not right for his stats to be compared to those of other eras but he was among the very best of his era and so deserves the vote.

I think the comparison between Perry's spitter and Raffy's alleged steroid use is apt. Both were technically against the rules (steroids less so), neither rule was rigorously enforced, and both were treated with a similar wink-wink, nod-nod acceptance.

It'll all be a moot point in 20 or 30 years anyway. Raffy will go into the Hall, even if he has to wait for most of the old holy sportswriters to die, or the Vet's Committee to put him in. There will be a cooling off period for a few years. But at some point a confirmed steroid user will go into the Hall, and the rest of the deserving players will follow.

As Bill James often says, after enough time passes the stories and the legends and the emotions fade, and all that's left is the record. And by the record Raffy is nearly an inner-circle HOFer.

[Riggodrill44]

Raffy should be in the HOF no question.

Players have "cheated" all throughout baseball, whether it be doctoring the baseball or taking PEDs. It has never been a clean game and those who would like to think otherwise are just kidding themselves.

If you don't let Raffy in, then some HOFers should leave as well for what they did to cheat like Gaylord Perry.

To not let Raffy in is just making a judgement call on what kind of "cheating" is acceptable and that isn't right IMO.

:clap3::clap3::clap3:

[waroriole]

Great idea. Let's get rid of all standards that aren't 100% guaranteed infallible in the face of a determined cheater. After all, it's not their fault that the safeguards are so weak right? And while we're at it let's erase any notion of degree, because...well because it's just so darn difficult to evaluate those pesky nuances isn't it?

I don't know about you, but it makes my head hurt just to think about how we might be doing a disservice to Rafael Palmiero. Oh, the agony...

Despite your eyeroll, you don't really address his point. People have cheated in baseball since it was invented. Do you leave out all the people who ever did greenies, or were suspected of it?

I actually believe Raffy when he says he didn't know. I just don't think he's the kind of guy that would do that, and the way he's defended says something. He probably realized there was a possibility that Tejada had tainted B12, but took it anyway. He got embarassed for testing positive, and kind of disappeared out of the public light, but has never changed his story. Baseball writers can do what they want, but Raffy is a no doubt Hall of Famer in my book.

[tntoriole]

Who, in their right mind, takes an unprescribed shot in your body from another person for any reason?....Palmeiro is a liar and a cheat. No Hall of Fame vote from me.

[Phantom]

Who, in their right mind, takes an unprescribed shot in your body from another person for any reason?....Palmeiro is a liar and a cheat. No Hall of Fame vote from me.

You are being super judgmental of heroin users in this post.

[Mad Mark]

The Palmeiro situation has never made sense to me. I really wish he and Roy Firestone could get together for an interview that would set the story straight once and for all.

[DrungoHazewood]

My personal feeling is that any season in which a player has tested positive for steroids, their numbers for that season should be removed from their career numbers.

Of course you realize that's completely unworkable and helps solidify the patently false idea that the guys who got caught were most of the problem. The guys who tested positive were probably 5% of the total users. You'd be issuing draconian punishments for having bad luck, while leaving the records of guys like Bonds and McGwire untouched, as they never failed a drug test.

Or if you extend the airbrushing of records to evidence beyond test results then you open up the door to almost anything. Willie Mays and Pud Galvin and Tom House and Bill Lee and who knows how many hundreds of players will have big gaps in their playing records.

[LookitsPuck]

Raffy tested positive. Period. He's a liar, and a cheat. He can say, "Why would I do it?" But it's all backpedaling. All of these athletes have some sort of concoction of lies: I didn't know I was taking it, It was just once, Someone set me up the bomb, etc. etc.

FWIW, noone tends to believe Jose Canseco, but I think it's mighty convincing that everyone he outed in his book came tumbling down like a set of dominoes. And Raffy is one of those guys.

Sorry, Raffy. You have HOF numbers, but do you really need to keep lying? It's disgusting.

[Orsulak4Prez]

I have a theory on alleged steroid users making the hall. Those that were retired, or at the end of their career much like Raffy and McGuire are going to have a hard time making it in. Current players like A-Rod are going to have a chance to "redeem" themselves by accomplishing more and making people forget about the steroid use. In sports it seems like when you win, the general public will forgive you for anything.

I don't feel sorry for these guys. They are cheaters, but it's not fair that some players will be discriminated against and some will be forgiven.

[Jammer7]

I don't believe him for a second. His defense is a typical intelligent liars defense...."Why would I do that?" He is an intelligent man, and that is his way of rationalizing stupidity away. And, there is far too much evidence, circumstantial and otherwise, to prove he did it. Did Canseco lie and implicate Raffy falsely?

For me, it isn't that he used steroids as much as it is that he lied about it to Congress and a national audience. I have admired those who, throughout this process, have stood up and said, "Yes, I did it. I am sorry and embarrassed." The fans have largely forgiven them. I think we understand that people will cheat to survive in an occupation where there is so much money at stake. But Raffy, don't pee on my leg and tell me it's raining.

Steroids have been illegal for a few decades now. They were against the rules because they were illegal. No? Just because they didn't test for them doesn't mean they weren't against the rules.

Does he get in....yeah, more than likely a few years down the road. It's a Hall of Fame, not a Hall of Honor.

[DrungoHazewood]

I think it is a jump in logic to make the claim that punishing the minority of known users, helps further the idea that they were the main problem.

I just can't see wiping away the records of a small fraction of users, while leaving the vast majority untainted. Even those you've wiped out numbers for - it's almost always one season out of their career. Take Manny. He failed one test at, what, 36? So you just wipe out that one half-season that he already missed 50 games on suspension for?

I just think it's unworkable, in addition to my personal distaste for airbrushing history. Stuff happened, I don't think you're fixing anything by pretending it didn't on the MLB.com website. We're not in 1936 Russia - Raffy's complete numbers will always be on baseball reference. People would just stop using the official sites with the incomplete data.

[waroriole]

I have a theory on alleged steroid users making the hall. Those that were retired, or at the end of their career much like Raffy and McGuire are going to have a hard time making it in. Current players like A-Rod and Pujols are going to have a chance to "redeem" themselves by accomplishing more and making people forget about the steroid use. In sports it seems like when you win, the general public will forgive you for anything.

I don't feel sorry for these guys. They are cheaters, but it's not fair that some players will be discriminated against and some will be forgiven.

You have some sort of evidence that Pujols has used steroids? Or, is this just garbage speculation.

[Jagwar]

I love Raffy but now he can never go in the Hall of fame.

The hall of fame has to err on the side of protecting the game and Raffy is damaged goods. In my opinion Arod,Bonds Raffy,Mcgwire,Clemens and anyone on steroids are out.

My only problem with this... there is no way that we will ever know all of the hitters or pitchers who used PEDs in the steroids era. Raffy put up some monster numbers... but how many of his hits/HR came against pitchers who might have been using steroids?

IMO, you either let nobody in from the era, or you let every worthy/eligible player in. You can't keep Raffy/McGwire/Sosa out of the HOF when you have no certainty as to how many other hitters and pitchers were juicing.

[RebouletThrow]

Sooner or later, the HOF voters are going to have to realize that a high percentage of players were using steroids during this time.

Not only did Raffy hit HRs, he also had 3,000 hits and 3 Gold Gloves. He was an all-around player. If he tested positive in his final year, then it was because he was trying to keep his career alive, just like all of the other aging superstars doing the same thing.

Don't fault the man for trying to keep up with the level of competition.

[DrungoHazewood]

My only problem with this... there is no way that we will ever know all of the hitters or pitchers who used PEDs in the steroids era. Raffy put up some monster numbers... but how many of his hits/HR came against pitchers who might have been using steroids?

IMO, you either let nobody in from the era, or you let every worthy/eligible player in. You can't keep Raffy/McGwire/Sosa out of the HOF when you have no certainty as to how many other hitters and pitchers were juicing.

As many or more pitchers have been caught in drug tests than position players. The exact effects on the league are unknowable, but it certainly kept run scoring and individual offensive statistics down.

For all we know an average player in the 1990s or 2000s wouldn't have seen his numbers budge without steroids. The gains from the hitters may have been fully offset by the gains from the pitchers.