Kurkjian on Raffy

[waroriole]

Great minds.

Now about that Auburn thing...

You're changing your mind? Well, better late than never.

[CrimsonTribe]

You're changing your mind? Well, better late than never.

You wish.

[Dagger420]

The only speculation I've seen about Pujols is that he was drafted low because nobody believed he was 18 or 19, they all thought he was like 22.

The only PED stuff I've heard has been of the "nobody could be that good without 'roids" idle chatter.

I guess if you take what Big Papi said about most dominican teens getting "milkshakes" and that he admitted he probably took 'roids in that way, it could be extrapolated into Pujols possibly unknowingly taking something when he was younger.

Pujols is a huge guy that puts up incredible numbers and I guess the point here is that we DON'T know for sure and we can never really be sure as fans because our trust has been broken by so many of our beloved stars. A-Rod and Manny, or even Raffy, really seem to hurt because those guys weren't quite the hulking body-builder looking guys like Canseco, McGwire or Sosa, so it really opens up a lot of other guys for debate.

I understand a ton of development has been made in making people bigger, faster, stronger through legal means, but how many guys do you remember that were nearly as big or strong as Pujols in the 60's or 70's?

I think everyone from the era, including Pujols, will be questioned. Look at the whole Jose Bautista situation. The kid is playing in a supposed POST-steroid era and people are still paranoid that he's doing something illegal.

We as baseball fans are probably going to have trust issues for awhile. It's like a guy who continually gets cheated on by women, of course they are going to see every woman as a sneaky cheater.

[waroriole]

I guess if you take what Big Papi said about most dominican teens getting "milkshakes" and that he admitted he probably took 'roids in that way, it could be extrapolated into Pujols possibly unknowingly taking something when he was younger.

Pujols is a huge guy that puts up incredible numbers and I guess the point here is that we DON'T know for sure and we can never really be sure as fans because our trust has been broken by so many of our beloved stars. A-Rod and Manny, or even Raffy, really seem to hurt because those guys weren't quite the hulking body-builder looking guys like Canseco, McGwire or Sosa, so it really opens up a lot of other guys for debate.

I understand a ton of development has been made in making people bigger, faster, stronger through legal means, but how many guys do you remember that were nearly as big or strong as Pujols in the 60's or 70's?

I think everyone from the era, including Pujols, will be questioned. Look at the whole Jose Bautista situation. The kid is playing in a supposed POST-steroid era and people are still paranoid that he's doing something illegal.

We as baseball fans are probably going to have trust issues for awhile. It's like a guy who continually gets cheated on by women, of course they are going to see every woman as a sneaky cheater.

I'm sorry, but that is garbage. Are you saying that every Dominican should be presumed to have taken steroids because of one thing that Ortiz said.

[El Gordo]

I hate that an entire era is tainted... and I hate that the majority of users during that era were not caught.

Obviously, even less than the minority of players who got caught, would also be up for the HOF. Still, I think removing their records for the year they were proven guilty of using makes sense.

I'd be fine with MLB also using the same standard (removing numbers) for other players proven to have used (through reasonable doubt, since this is not a court of law), or admitted to have used PED's, or Steroids... even if they never actually failed a test.

I think it is a jump in logic to make the claim that punishing the minority of known users, helps further the idea that they were the main problem.

Regarding the airbrushing of records and extending it to other eras and other issues... idk.

What I do know is that steroids make you bigger, faster, stronger. While it does not give you hand/eye coordination, it would help your bat speed which would obviously help.

You also see the reports that steroids helps you rehab/rebound quicker... allowing you continue to train, and play when others could not.

I still like Boswell's article on Bonds from 2004:

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/articles/A33704-2004Dec3.html

"Bonds's reputation has lived by his statistics. Now, let it die by them. Forever. Before Bonds hooked up with his old friend and alleged steroid merchant Greg Anderson in '98, he had 411 homers in 6,621 at-bats, one per 16.1 at-bats. The next two years, as he acquired and adjusted to a new body, he hit 83 in 835 at-bats, one per 10 at-bats.

In the past four seasons, from ages 37 to 40, as he has done the deeds and committed the offenses against his sport for which he will always be remembered, Bonds hit 209 home runs in 1,642 at bats -- one every 7.9 at-bats.

In those four years, Bonds won four straight National League most valuable player awards, two batting titles and set the all-time single-season records for home runs, slugging percentage, on-base percentage, walks and intentional walks.

All those records are now a steroid lie. Without Anderson's illicit help, there is no reason whatsoever to believe Bonds could have approached, much less broken, any of the all-time marks for which he lusted so much that he has now ruined his name.

Throw every record that Bonds has set in the past four years into the trash can that history reserves for cheats.

We need no asterisks or erasures. Word of mouth, from box seats to bleachers, from generation to generation, will suffice. Bonds's 21st-century deeds have been obliterated in the eyes of anyone who knows baseball. Nothing will ever bring them back.

Let Bonds keep his 411 homers and three MVPs before he linked his fate to Anderson in '98, though we can't be sure what he might have used to aid his play before that. At least we now know what he's willing to use: anything that's put into his hands."

As to tainting an era, what about the juiced ball that the MLB denies having happened, but evidence shows has occured maybe 5 times over the past 100 years. Which each introduction of the new balls, power numbers spiked. It has had a far greater effect than the use of steroids during the 90's.

[olehippi]

Perhaps they should add a new "Android" wing in Cooperstown for players who used synthetic means to achieve their stats.

As for Palmeiro, I personally think he was a victim of circumstance. I can buy the story of tainted B-12 from Tejada. However, that doesn't excuse his decision to accept, and inject, a prescription drug from another player, or make it any less stupid. But, I would challenge anyone who would tell me they haven't done some stupid things in their life.

[MatthewW]

Raffy tested positive. Period. He's a liar, and a cheat. He can say, "Why would I do it?" But it's all backpedaling. All of these athletes have some sort of concoction of lies: I didn't know I was taking it, It was just once, Someone set me up the bomb, etc. etc.

FWIW, noone tends to believe Jose Canseco, but I think it's mighty convincing that everyone he outed in his book came tumbling down like a set of dominoes. And Raffy is one of those guys.

Sorry, Raffy. You have HOF numbers, but do you really need to keep lying? It's disgusting.

Is he really a 'liar'? Didn't he test positive AFTER the finger wag???

I tend to believe Canseco, but there is no other 'proof' that Raffy did steroids before.

Too many people have harsher feelings towards Raffy because he is a 'liar.' At that point in time, there is a possibility he wasn't lying.

I have never been to a Ravens/Steelers game. But if I go next year, does that now make me a LIAR since I said I had never been to Ravens/Steelers game BEFORE I said it????

EDIT: And I agree with JTrea on this. There has been cheating all throughout baseball, and we just want to pinpoint the 'steroid era' as THE 'cheaters'. Come on...

[DrungoHazewood]

EDIT: And I agree with JTrea on this. There has been cheating all throughout baseball, and we just want to pinpoint the 'steroid era' as THE 'cheaters'. Come on...

Because the 'roid stuff happened in conjunction with a number of other things (most importantly the strike and subsequent juicing of bats, balls, and many smaller ballparks) it appeared like this kind of cheating was causing huge jumps in offense, and longstanding records to fall. I think that pushed it over the top. Corking bats and using greenies and throwing emory balls could be brushed off, but the appearance of a magical potion that let 98-lb utility infielders hit 85 homers was too much. Even if the narrative that led to all the anger wasn't really true.

[24fps]

Despite your eyeroll, you don't really address his point. People have cheated in baseball since it was invented. Do you leave out all the people who ever did greenies, or were suspected of it?

I actually believe Raffy when he says he didn't know. I just don't think he's the kind of guy that would do that, and the way he's defended says something. He probably realized there was a possibility that Tejada had tainted B12, but took it anyway. He got embarassed for testing positive, and kind of disappeared out of the public light, but has never changed his story. Baseball writers can do what they want, but Raffy is a no doubt Hall of Famer in my book.

So should we conclude that because many players have bent some written or unwritten rule, all standards of behavior should be diluted or even abolished altogether? And never mind trying to differentiate questions of scale or degree. How should we think about those players who chose not to use PED’s in an atmosphere where substantial career-enhancing benefits were universally believed to exist? It strikes me that shrugging our shoulders and saying “everybody did it” is not only factually incorrect, but debases the sort of choice that we ought to highly respect.

We all have our opinion as to Raffy’s credibility about his claim that he accidently ingested steroids. I find his claim ludicrous for one simple reason. If you felt you needed a B12 shot would you source it from a coworker? Of course not, you would go to a doctor and have it prescribed. There’s nothing remotely questionable about vitamin B12. That would be especially likely if you worked in an environment so hypersensitized to PED drug abuse that you were called to testify before congress on the subject mere months earlier.

[BaltimoreTerp]

You're changing your mind? Well, better late than never.

I've been meaning to ask: have you seen that new ESPN commercial where apparently everyone in the state of Alabama ends every conversation with "Roll Tide"? How does that make Auburn fans feel?

[mweb]

He should make it in regardless of what he used and if he intentionally used it or not.

[carolinaoriole]

He should make it in regardless of what he used and if he intentionally used it or not.

Why, because the ends justify the means.

Where do we draw the line? or do we?

I am not being critical of your position, I totally disagree but I am asking you to clarify how taking steroids and still going in the hall of fame is morally ok?

The Baseball hall of fame is the toughest sports hall of fame to get inducted in. I am glad that it is that way.

[BaltimoreTerp]

Why, because the ends justify the means.

Where do we draw the line? or do we?

I am not being critical of your position, I totally disagree but I am asking you to clarify how taking steroids and still going in the hall of fame is morally ok?

The Baseball hall of fame is the toughest sports hall of fame to get inducted in. I am glad that it is that way.

What do you consider "moral" when it comes to the Hall?

And your second point is very, very, VERY arguable, particularly depending on the era you are talking about.

[El Gordo]

Why, because the ends justify the means.

Where do we draw the line? or do we?

I am not being critical of your position, I totally disagree but I am asking you to clarify how taking steroids and still going in the hall of fame is morally ok?

The Baseball hall of fame is the toughest sports hall of fame to get inducted in. I am glad that it is that way.

Why draw the line between steroids and greenies? Greenies keep a player "up" so he can perform at a "high" level over the course of a long and gruelling season. Steroids keep a player up so he can maintain a high level of performance over the course of a long and gruelling season.

[mweb]

Why, because the ends justify the means.

Where do we draw the line? or do we?

I am not being critical of your position, I totally disagree but I am asking you to clarify how taking steroids and still going in the hall of fame is morally ok?

The Baseball hall of fame is the toughest sports hall of fame to get inducted in. I am glad that it is that way.

- I don't think steroids are really wrong, at least when used properly.

- The rules against them were not being enforced.

- It can be argued that MLB was encouraging steroid usage.

- There was a culture of steroid usage.

- Tons of his competitors were using and some of them will make the HOF.

- There are almost certainly guys in the HOF now that used steroids.

- There are guys in the HOF that used greenies.

- There are guys in the HOF that used other PED's and/or cheated differently.

- There are guys in the HOF that used illegal non-performing enhancing drugs.

- There are guys in the HOF who have done immoral things worse than roids.

- Baseball has a history of promoting getting ahead in any means necessary.

Lastly, to me the HOF is about having the best players in the game being honored, and that's regardless of whether they corked a bat, threw a spitball, doctored the ball in other ways, stole signs, used greenies, tried horse steroids, did cocaine, were terrible people, or used steroids.