Palmeiro just digging his grave deeper

[Bloopandablast]

Doesn't upper body strength improve bat speed? Am I missing something? Can't stronger people swing heavier bats faster than weaker people?

Yes it increases bat speed, causing you to hit the ball farther. And as important or more so, wait a split second longer to start the bat, thereby allowing more time for pitch recognition and pitch location!

[El Gordo]

Yes it increases bat speed, causing you to hit the ball farther. And as important or more so, wait a split second longer to start the bat, thereby allowing more time for pitch recognition and pitch location!

What are you basing this on? Do you have a source for this?

[Riggodrill44]

I agree and disagree with you.

Yes, even with the exact same genetics - one can have the talent, and one could not.

I'm sure you considered it, but you did not post it... but you obviously also have to factor in the training, instruction, and dedication of the respective players. Where I disagree with you is the idea that no drug is going to make you better. I don't know how anyone can believe that.

What I think you mean is that if you can not hit, steroids are not going to make you be able to do so. We all agree with that.

If you have a player with existing outstanding talent, that is made bigger, stronger, faster, recoups from injuries quicker, is able to train longer - how can not improve them as a player?

Steroids are not going to give anyone hand/eye coordination, but it could help increase your bat speed and power.

You know nobody seems to acknowledge the workouts these guys put themselves through to get those huge gains.People act like they take a shot gain 5 pounds of lean muscles overnight.

These guys bust a$$ in the gym.

[blid]

Lets assume for a second he IS telling us the truth. That, like Roger Clemens, he let a man, who is NOT a trainer or team physician, inject him with some sort of substance that he allowed in his body.

I don't get this argument. I assume vitamin B12 shots are relatively common. I assume Raffy had taken them several times before. So when a teammate says, "Hey Raffy, I just got a shipment of some vitamin B12, maybe you want some," it's not some mystery substance Raffy's accepting, it's something he knows what it is and he knows what it does, and that is what it was too, allegedly, it had just unfortunately been tainted. It's sort of a mistake in some small way, I guess, but I don't see that as unbelievable or incredibly irresponsible or anything like that (if the story is true). I mean, your reaction is almost akin to blaming someone when their drink gets spiked.

[El Gordo]

You know nobody seems to acknowledge the workouts these guys put themselves through to get those huge gains.People act like they take a shot gain 5 pounds of lean muscles overnight.

These guys bust a$$ in the gym.

I have yet to hear or read any informed discussion of steroids and what they do and don't do, by any media commentator or sports writer. Most of it is hype fed misinformation.

[scOtt]

You know nobody seems to acknowledge the workouts these guys put themselves through to get those huge gains.People act like they take a shot gain 5 pounds of lean muscles overnight.

These guys bust a$$ in the gym.

Of course they work out. Steroid users work out and non-users work out. But the guys on steroids recover faster, so they can work out more often. And they benefit more from their workouts. Grow muscle faster.

[accinfo]

I have yet to hear or read any informed discussion of steroids and what they do and don't do, by any media commentator or sports writer. Most of it is hype fed misinformation.

Why don't you look at the amount of home runs hit during the steriod "era" compared to before and after they started testing? Stevie Wonder can see pretty clearly that PED's gave players added strength and warped baseball statistics for a generation.

I know it when I hear how bitter, and rightfully so, a Frank Robinson is about these guys who cheated. Frank hit 49 homeruns in a pitchers ballpark.

[BaltimoreTerp]

Why don't you look at the amount of home runs hit during the steriod "era" compared to before and after they started testing? Stevie Wonder can see pretty clearly that PED's gave players added strength and warped baseball statistics for a generation.

Though I generally agree, let's not act like this is absolutely guaranteed accurate. There's evidence posted in this thread that suggests other factors.

I know it when I hear how bitter, and rightfully so, a Frank Robinson is about these guys who cheated. Frank hit 49 homeruns in a pitchers ballpark.

Maybe he was on steroids, too

[thefan11]

I know that Raffy more than likely guilty as charged, but why would he even risk taking PED's with hit #3000 well within reach? He had most of the season still in front of him and 2-3 more years if he wanted as a DH. I could never fathom the part of the equation...

[boog26]

I would say that most likely that Mark McGuire was the stronger man. I agree about the physics discussion. However, I have no doubt that Mark McGwire could have swung a 3 lb. bat in Ruth's era and hit homers just as far, if we are to believe in the distances you put forth for Ruth. By the way, what is the authentication for the distances of Ruth's homeruns? That's a sidebar anyway. The question I have for you, is what kind of pitching did both men face? Did Ruth face guys who threw almost nothing but fastballs? Did Ruth face relief specialists? Did Ruth face the quality of pitching that McGwire faced on a day in, day out basis? Maybe Ruth would have had a lot of trouble swinging a 3 lb bat in today's game.

Does anyone really doubt that steroids help make players stronger, and therefore makes them able to get more leverage and bat speed, which therefore makes them able to wait a split second longer, which therefore not only gives them more power but makes them better hitters overall. Isn't that just common sense? I mean, did all of these guys just take steroids to look good? Of course not. They saw how well they worked when they knew the guy with the locker next to them was taking them and getting a lot better because of it.

BTW, Ruth is an American Legend. However, he didn't compete against a full talent pool of players. I'm sure there are many great stories about Josh Gibson as well. Maybe, if he had been allowed to play and others like him had been allowed to play, Ruth's legend would be a little less legendary.

Ditto for Josh Gibson. the pool of players he was playing against was even more limited than the Babe.

[El Gordo]

I would say that most likely that Mark McGuire was the stronger man. I agree about the physics discussion. However, I have no doubt that Mark McGwire could have swung a 3 lb. bat in Ruth's era and hit homers just as far, if we are to believe in the distances you put forth for Ruth. By the way, what is the authentication for the distances of Ruth's homeruns? That's a sidebar anyway. The question I have for you, is what kind of pitching did both men face? Did Ruth face guys who threw almost nothing but fastballs? Did Ruth face relief specialists? Did Ruth face the quality of pitching that McGwire faced on a day in, day out basis? Maybe Ruth would have had a lot of trouble swinging a 3 lb bat in today's game.

Does anyone really doubt that steroids help make players stronger, and therefore makes them able to get more leverage and bat speed, which therefore makes them able to wait a split second longer, which therefore not only gives them more power but makes them better hitters overall. Isn't that just common sense? I mean, did all of these guys just take steroids to look good? Of course not. They saw how well they worked when they knew the guy with the locker next to them was taking them and getting a lot better because of it.

BTW, Ruth is an American Legend. However, he didn't compete against a full talent pool of players. I'm sure there are many great stories about Josh Gibson as well. Maybe, if he had been allowed to play and others like him had been allowed to play, Ruth's legend would be a little less legendary.

I provided a link to the Bill Jenkinson article in the Baseball Almanac. He has spent a good deal of time verifying and debunking mythical HR distances. As to the weight of the bat it's a fairly insignificant part of the equation except that a lighter bat could increaes the bat speed somewhat. Certainly the kind of pitching Ruth faced would effect the number of HR's he hit, but I doubt that it would impact on distance. The ball he played with was not nearly as lively as the one McGwire hit and the pitchers probably didn't throw as hard as often as pitchers do today. It's harder to hit a change up a long way than it is to hit a 95 mph fast ball. I am using distance as the indicater of power not the frequency of HR's. Ruth hit as many tple measure jobs as players like McGwire, Mantle, Sosa, Thome, Frank Howard, etc, guys who were certainly a lot stronger in the upper body.

[SrMeowMeow]

I provided a link to the Bill Jenkinson article in the Baseball Almanac. He has spent a good deal of time verifying and debunking mythical HR distances. As to the weight of the bat it's a fairly insignificant part of the equation except that a lighter bat could increaes the bat speed somewhat. Certainly the kind of pitching Ruth faced would effect the number of HR's he hit, but I doubt that it would impact on distance. The ball he played with was not nearly as lively as the one McGwire hit and the pitchers probably didn't throw as hard as often as pitchers do today. It's harder to hit a change up a long way than it is to hit a 95 mph fast ball. I am using distance as the indicater of power not the frequency of HR's. Ruth hit as many tple measure jobs as players like McGwire, Mantle, Sosa, Thome, Frank Howard, etc, guys who were certainly a lot stronger in the upper body.

I don't think Ruth is a good example in this argument. His exploits are mythic; they are poorly documented compared to modern players; he's, you know, not alive anymore; he played in a completely different era against completely different competition.

Why not look for a modern-day player who hits the ball very far and is not muscle-bound? That would be far more relevant. I can't really think of one off the top of my head, though.

By the way, re: it being easier to hit a faster pitch far, hitters crush batting practice pitches.

[El Gordo]

I don't think Ruth is a good example in this argument. His exploits are mythic; they are poorly documented compared to modern players; he's, you know, not alive anymore; he played in a completely different era against completely different competition.

Why not look for a modern-day player who hits the ball very far and is not muscle-bound? That would be far more relevant. I can't really think of one off the top of my head, though.

By the way, re: it being easier to hit a faster pitch far, hitters crush batting practice pitches.

It's simple physics. A 95 mp pitched ball will go farther colliding with a bat moving at 90 mph than a pitched ball going 83 mph colliding with the same bat at the same bat speed. Do you really think the guy who bench presses the most weight will be able to generate the most bat speed and drive the ball the farthest? The only impact the era would have on the distance a baseball travels is the difference in the ball, and the speed of the pitches on average.

[boog26]

It's simple physics. A 95 mp pitched ball will go farther colliding with a bat moving at 90 mph than a pitched ball going 83 mph colliding with the same bat at the same bat speed. Do you really think the guy who bench presses the most weight will be able to generate the most bat speed and drive the ball the farthest? The only impact the era would have on the distance a baseball travels is the difference in the ball, and the speed of the pitches on average.

I think that history has proven that the major difference in wins and losses in Major League Baseball is eating chicken, pancakes and/or Froot Loops before a game. Those guys are the winners!

However, I am 49.09% sure that 50.01% of everything thing I just wrote is total bull.

[SrMeowMeow]

It's simple physics. A 95 mp pitched ball will go farther colliding with a bat moving at 90 mph than a pitched ball going 83 mph colliding with the same bat at the same bat speed. Do you really think the guy who bench presses the most weight will be able to generate the most bat speed and drive the ball the farthest? The only impact the era would have on the distance a baseball travels is the difference in the ball, and the speed of the pitches on average.

I understand physics. How do you explain, for example, monster Home Run Derby shots? They don't throw 90 MPH for the derby, and it's not uncommon for the hitters to break 500 feet.

It's easier to make perfect contact on a slow fastball than on a fast fastball. It's hard to make good contact on breaking or deceptive off-speed pitches, which make up the bulk of "slow pitches" at the major league level. I think you've got some wires crossed in your argument.