Palmeiro just digging his grave deeper

[mweb]

Here's something for those who give greenies a pass but not steroids:

Beginning this season, players will be tested for amphetamines. And many major-leaguers believe that our national pastime will never be the same.

"It's going to have a lot bigger effect on the game than steroid testing," said Chipper Jones, the Atlanta Braves' All-Star third baseman. "It's more rampant than steroids. ... I think the fringe players will be weeded out."

[24fps]

Yeah, but if a guy like Koufax has an arthritic elbow, that is his baseline. And he needs something to help get him out on the field. Koufax could not perform with an arthritic elbow...if he could, I think it's a safe bet that he couldn't perform as well as he could with the assistance of cortisone. I don't think there's much of a difference when it's something that allows a player to perform when he otherwise couldn't.

Koufax's arthritic elbow was no more a baseline than Erik Bedard's elbow was pre-Tommy John surgery.

Cortisone is an anti inflammatory medication that has universally recognized medical uses in baseball including Koufax's elbow. Anabolic steroids are indicated for people suffering from testosterone deficiency. Examples of accepted use are for delayed puberty, certain kinds of impotence or body wasting from degenerative diseases such as AIDS. A small MLB sample size to be sure.

If the argument is going to be quicker healing, then what baseball related injuries exist where anabolic steroids are the recommended treatment by reputable doctors? I can find none.

[boog26]

Here's something for those who give greenies a pass but not steroids:

Forget the "Greenies." Hit the local Starbucks for a few-large coffees and then stop by the local convenience-store for any of the pills they hang next to the cash register.

[Moose Milligan]

Koufax's arthritic elbow was no more a baseline than Erik Bedard's elbow was pre-Tommy John surgery.

Cortisone is an anti inflammatory medication that has universally recognized medical uses in baseball including Koufax's elbow. Anabolic steroids are indicated for people suffering from testosterone deficiency. Examples of accepted use are for delayed puberty, certain kinds of impotence or body wasting from degenerative diseases such as AIDS. A small MLB sample size to be sure.

If the argument is going to be quicker healing, then what baseball related injuries exist where anabolic steroids are the recommended treatment by reputable doctors? I can find none.

Yeah, but Tommy John is a permanent fix. Cortisone only lasts for so long before someone needs another shot.

I understand the medical difference between anti inflammatory medication and anabolic steroids. However, anabolic steroids also allow quicker recovery from workouts which allows people to lift more and do more in the gym, which is what McGwire said he used them for.

I'm not looking at them through the scope of what a doctor would deem acceptable use, I'm looking at both through how it helps a baseball player perform tasks that he'd otherwise not be able to do and while there IS a difference there, I don't think the gap is particularly a large one.

[DrungoHazewood]

I'm not looking at them through the scope of what a doctor would deem acceptable use, I'm looking at both through how it helps a baseball player perform tasks that he'd otherwise not be able to do and while there IS a difference there, I don't think the gap is particularly a large one.

I've long wondered what will happen when legal, performance-enhancing elective surgery becomes commonplace. You know it will. 18-year-old kids having artificial, almost indestructable UCLs implanted so they'll never have to have Tommy John. Or some kind of device to keep labrums and rotator cuffs from fraying and tearing. Maybe uses for improved muscle wire, that's used in robotics applications right now.

It wouldn't surprise me at all if the trend towards fewer innings by starters is finally reversed by pitchers augmented with artificial body parts.

Do you ban that type of thing? If so, then what about players who're really injured? Do you ban surgeries that have the potential to make them better than before? Who would make that call? What about other devices like Brian Roberts' special contact lenses that enable him to pick up the ball out of the pitcher's hand better?

[Tony-OH]

I'll go on record as saying that Palmeiro and Bagwell were Musial-type talents. Sure, they're probably top-100 type players while Musial is a top-20. But they're all among the top tiny fraction of 1% of all baseball players ever.

I'm not sure anyone besides Ruth has ever been a Ruth-type talent.

Palmeiro and Bagwell were two of the better players of their era. Why wouldn't they have talent in the same range as the best players of other eras?

As far as I can tell the evidence that Bagwell wasn't a historically great player boils down to "he was so good he had to have been on drugs." And I just won't buy into that.

Well that explains it. You think Bagwell and Palmeiro were Musial talents despite the fact that neither did anything close to what Musial did early in their careers (or pre-steroid use for those of us that choose to live in reality). Basically you've taken the ostrich approach to all of this. Stick your head on a hole and act like nothing is happening.

I'm fine with the people that say they don't care about steroids and even the people that believe players had been using for a long time prior to the "steroid era," but it's comical that some choose to just stick their heads in the sands and claim that players like Bagwell and Palmeiro were clean despite the mountain of evidence that neither were.

[Tony-OH]

Bagwell is a top 40 position player all time by WAR according to BB-Ref.

By the way, this is also a guy who has 200 career stolen bases, and at a 72% rate (I believe that is over or at least at the break even rate for his era, no?). :eektf: He's 34th all time in Power-Speed #.

He's not Stan Musial, but he's certainly worthy of being called one of the best hitters ever.

It wasn't neither before he was enhanced, that's the entire point. He was drafted in third round and traded for Larry Anderson precisely because he had never shown the power more believed first baseman needed. Pointing towards his overall numbers is about as valid as pointing towards Bonds as the all-time best power hitter.

[Moose Milligan]

Well that explains it. You think Bagwell and Palmeiro were Musial talents despite the fact that neither did anything close to what Musial did early in their careers (or pre-steroid use for those of us that choose to live in reality). Basically you've taken the ostrich approach to all of this. Stick your head on a hole and act like nothing is happening.

I'm fine with the people that say they don't care about steroids and even the people that believe players had been using for a long time prior to the "steroid era," but it's comical that some choose to just stick their heads in the sands and claim that players like Bagwell and Palmeiro were clean despite the mountain of evidence that neither were.

Tony, your "evidence" that Bagwell wasn't clean is pretty flimsy. I'm no lawyer, but I doubt you could make any of that stick in the court of law.

[Tony-OH]

Well, there are the folks who think steroids have the power to dramatically transform someone come rank mediocrity to good major leaguer.

Clearly not in this case.

And some stick their heads in the sand and believe they have no effect or were not used. Clearly steroids can take a very good player and make them a great player. See Bonds and McGwire as proven examples. They will not take a mediocre player and make them a HoF player but they certainly can take them up a level. Bret Boone went from decent to very good. Multiple AAAA guys ended up with niche major league careers. Steroids certainly can upgrade a players overall power and ability to stay healthy.

[Moose Milligan]

And some stick their heads in the sand and believe they have no effect or were not used. Clearly steroids can take a very good player and make them a great player. See Bonds and McGwire as proven examples. They will not take a mediocre player and make them a HoF player but they certainly can take them up a level. Bret Boone went from decent to very good. Multiple AAAA guys ended up with niche major league careers. Steroids certainly can upgrade a players overall power and ability to stay healthy.

I will agree with this. Bonds put up ridiculous numbers when his career should have been in its decline. They can take someone with warning track power and give them that extra boost to put em over the fence.

[Tony-OH]

So I suppose you have a big problem with Hank Aaron's peak lasting til he was 39 including having his best hr year by far (per AB) at age 37 and then beating that at age 39?

I realize this is a tough concept for some of you so let me see if I can explain it once again.

Hank Aaron, like Stan Musial, were fantastic major league ball players by 21-years old. Like other true HoF type guys, they were good right from an early age and they keep they're peak longer. Hank Aaron didn't go from a 8 home runs a year player to 35+ homer guy in a few years. He hit 27 homers at 21-years old and 44 at 23-years old.

He was a true HoF talent so his peak would almost certainly last longer than most players' core 27-32....

[Tony-OH]

Placebo effect?

Huh? Are you screwing around or do you really think there are no effects of steroids on athletes? The East German woman's swim teams in the 70s and 80s might have something to say to that.

[Arthur_Bryant]

Huh? Are you screwing around or do you really think there are no effects of steroids on athletes? The East German woman's swim teams in the 70s and 80s might have something to say to that.

Not just the swim teams. An East German set the women's 400M (T&F) record 25 years old ago, and it is still unapproachable by modern athletes.

[Nigel Tufnel]

So I suppose you have a big problem with Hank Aaron's peak lasting til he was 39 including having his best hr year by far (per AB) at age 37 and then beating that at age 39?

It's hard to know who did what, and I know you're only half-serious, but it should be noted that Aaron moved from Milwaukee to Atlanta (the launching pad) in 1966, his age 32 season. For that age 37 season, he hit 31 HR at home, 16 on the road. At 39, it was 24 at home, 16 on the road. Maybe there are other explanations, but it sure seems like home park is a big part of it.

EDIT: And in 1957 and 1963, when he hit 44 HR for Milwaukee, his home/road splits were 18/26 and 19/25. In 1962 it was 18/27. Who knows - if he'd played in that Atlanta stadium for his entire career, he might have hit 900 HR.

[Arthur_Bryant]

I've long wondered what will happen when legal, performance-enhancing elective surgery becomes commonplace. You know it will. 18-year-old kids having artificial, almost indestructable UCLs implanted so they'll never have to have Tommy John.

Genetically engineered superathletes may happen first. And we may not even know about it. Good luck weeding those out.