Palmeiro just digging his grave deeper

[El Gordo]

Huh? Reread his post, man. He acknowledged that Raffy would be a good ballplayer without the PEDs, but simply added the caveat that those drugs turned him and his decline into HOF numbers. It's not farfetched to buy into the notion that a good ballplayer with a 290avg and 15-20 HR power can turn those numbers into 300 and 20-25 HR. Couple that with quicker rehab and your belief the voters should "do what the numbers say" doesn't hold water.

Bonds was the most extreme example of PED improvement. Pre steroids he averaged 32 HR per season and with steriods he averged 40. So the best ballplayer on steroids enhanced his performance 8 HR average a year, and stretched his poductive years out an extra 5. It is not likely to do that for most players.

[El Gordo]

I agree and disagree with you.

Yes, even with the exact same genetics - one can have the talent, and one could not.

I'm sure you considered it, but you did not post it... but you obviously also have to factor in the training, instruction, and dedication of the respective players.

Where I disagree with you is the idea that no drug is going to make you better. I don't know how anyone can believe that.

What I think you mean is that if you can not hit, steroids are not going to make you be able to do so. We all agree with that.

If you have a player with existing outstanding talent, that is made bigger, stronger, faster, recoups from injuries quicker, is able to train longer - how can not improve them as a player?

Steroids are not going to give anyone hand/eye coordination, but it could help increase your bat speed and power.

I don't think this is correct. Steroids certainly improve performance but not by increasing bat speed. Steroids increase uper body strength and mass. Upper body strength has little effect on power. Bat speed does, but it is generated through a combination of swing mechanics, and lower body core strengh. The main thing steroids do to increse power IMO, is to increase the the total mass behind the swing. They also allow a player to maintain peak performance over a longer period of time by allowing them to recover more quickly from workouts. My thought is that there is a great deal of exaggeration about the actual effects of steroids, when you consider other factors, such as a players innate talent and work ethic, juiced balls, park shrinkage, strike zone shrinkage, expansion, etc.

[El Gordo]

You can become too muscled bound and have that impact your swing... but I'm going to see more to convince me that by increasing your strength, power, and becoming more lean... that you would not also gain bat speed.

Yes, power often comes from the wrists and your legs... but it seems pretty clear to me that you should be able to whip the bat through the zone with greater authority.

Look at Babe Ruth and look at Mark McGwire. Clearly McGwire could bench press a lot more than the Babe. But the Babe hit at least as many(most likely more) 500 ft. + HR as McGwire did. Upper body strength has little to do with it. Weight behind bat speed does.

[DrungoHazewood]

But the Babe hit at least as many(most likely more) 500 ft. + HR as McGwire did.

If by "hit" you mean was described as having hit by people who had no real idea how long the homer was and didn't measure it and were prone to exaggeration that's probably true.

[MrOrange82]

Look at Babe Ruth and look at Mark McGwire. Clearly McGwire could bench press a lot more than the Babe. But the Babe hit at least as many(most likely more) 500 ft. + HR as McGwire did. Upper body strength has little to do with it. Weight behind bat speed does.

Why would the effects of steroids be limited to upper-body strength increases?

[El Gordo]

Why would the effects of steroids be limited to upper-body strength increases?

Because they mimic the effects of testosterone in adolescence.

[MrOrange82]

Because they mimic the effects of testosterone in adolescence.

Huh? Former English major...for many good reasons.

So if someone does steroids and spends a lot of time doing leg exercises (press/squats, etc.), the steroids aren't going to help increase lower-body strength? That doesn't make sense to me.

[El Gordo]

If by "hit" you mean was described as having hit by people who had no real idea how long the homer was and didn't measure it and were prone to exaggeration that's probably true.

I am well, aware of that, but even so according to Bill Jenkinson, this was the case: " In returning the discussion to Babe Ruth, it can be said that he defies rational analysis. Not only did he set distance records in every major league ballpark (including National League stadiums where he played only infrequently), he also set similar standards in hundreds of other fields, where he made exhibition and barnstorming appearances. Amazingly, many of those records remain unequaled, which is to say that Ruth is a true athletic anachronism. In virtually every other field of endeavor in which physical performance can be measured, there are no Ruthian equivalents. In 1921 alone, which was Ruth's best tape measure season, he hit at least one 500 foot home run in all eight American League cities. There should be no doubt about the authentication of these conclusions. Despite the scarcity of film on Ruth, we can still make definitive evaluations of the approximate landing points of all of his 714 career home runs." http://www.baseball-almanac.com/feats/art_hr.shtml

Given the context of his article, I find that compelling. I am looking forward to his new book on the subject, BASEBALL’S ULTIMATE POWER.

[El Gordo]

Huh? Former English major...for many good reasons.

So if someone does steroids and spends a lot of time doing leg exercises (press/squats, etc.), the steroids aren't going to help increase lower-body strength? That doesn't make sense to me.

You might foind this helpful. http://steroids-and-baseball.com/medical-effects.shtml#DISTRIBUTION

[MrOrange82]

You might foind this helpful. http://steroids-and-baseball.com/medical-effects.shtml#DISTRIBUTION

Interesting. It seems the consensus is that steroids help the upper-body more, not that they don't help the lower body at-all, though.

[El Gordo]

Interesting. It seems the consensus is that steroids help the upper-body more, not that they don't help the lower body at-all, though.

Did I say that? I said they promote upper body strength, and that is not a primary factor in producing power. Body mass plus bat speed is.

[Dr. FLK]

Did I say that? I said they promote upper body strength, and that is not a primary factor in producing power. Body mass plus bat speed is.

Doesn't upper body strength improve bat speed? Am I missing something? Can't stronger people swing heavier bats faster than weaker people?

[El Gordo]

Doesn't upper body strength improve bat speed? Am I missing something? Can't stronger people swing heavier bats faster than weaker people?

Who was stronger Mark McGwire or Babe Ruth, in your opinion? McGwire swung a 2lb bat and Babe swung a 3 lb. bat. The weight of the bat + bat speed + body mass + speed and weight of ball + air resistance, = distance.

[Johnny]

You might foind this helpful. http://steroids-and-baseball.com/medical-effects.shtml#DISTRIBUTION

read the bottom of the page, this is a pro anabolic steroid page. And quite frankly, it looks like an eight-year-old put it together.

[Bloopandablast]

Right, it was more rhetorical not directed at you.

I think it's going to take awhile, but eventually this crop of pompous self-righteous writers will eventually be replaced by more tolerant sportswriters and then the players that deserve to get in, will.

But right now, they are so focused on keeping the HOF "clean," while completely ignoring all the dirty laundry that is currently hanging on its walls.

What are the new standards for the HOF going to be once we get the more tolerant writers in? Anything goes?