Palmeiro just digging his grave deeper

[24fps]

You know the topic that has not really been touched on is steroids are not a new thing. It really can't be known with certainty that players pre-Conseco where not using. The drugs where being used as early has the late 40s in organized sports. With the USOC officially developing a program during that time period. I don't think it was used often if at all during that time, however it can not be ruled out. Especially with the lack of surgical options for injuries during those times. Is it out of the question that a doctor would give a player these drugs as a therapy for various conditions and the player recover and get better result using them and continue to do so? I think it is likely that some players used long before that Oakland As group found them.

By his own admission, a pitcher named Tom House is on record as having used them in the '70's. Given how widespread their use was elsewhere in sports, it's highly likely there were other ballplayers using them in the 80's, but I think identifying the decade after the 1994 strike as the "steroid era" is serviceable. Ironically given how heated the subject has become in the last 15 years, the baseball culture up until the 1990's actively discouraged weight lifting, which many of the writers I've read feel had a definite chilling effect on steroid use in baseball.

[El Gordo]

By his own admission, a pitcher named Tom House is on record as having used them in the '70's. Given how widespread their use was elsewhere in sports, it's highly likely there were other ballplayers using them in the 80's, but I think identifying the decade after the 1994 strike as the "steroid era" is serviceable. Ironically given how heated the subject has become in the last 15 years, the baseball culture up until the 1990's actively discouraged weight lifting, which many of the writers I've read feel had a definite chilling effect on steroid use in baseball.

Canseco's peak years were '86-'91. But it's hard to gauge with out factoring in the change in the ball. It happened at least 3 times from that period to now and on each occasion there were pronounced spikes in power numbers.

[George]

The USA may be slippling in math and science, but we can compete with anybody, anywhere in gullibility.

Take the test:

http://www.naturalnews.com/gullibility.html

[Nigel Tufnel]

You think taking a shot will make you a better baseball player.You can't bottle what it takes to play baseball at that level.

Wow, you're seriously going with the "PED's don't help you become a better player" argument? It's been a while since I've heard that one.

[24fps]

Canseco's peak years were '86-'91. But it's hard to gauge with out factoring in the change in the ball. It happened at least 3 times from that period to now and on each occasion there were pronounced spikes in power numbers.

Good point about Canseco.

Did anyone ever demonstrate conclusively that the balls were different? I'm not saying they weren't, I don't remember. I know a lot of players and managers were convinced they were. Along those same lines, we can throw in the changing strike zone and a dozen new, less spacious ballparks as contributors to a bias toward offense from 1992 on.

Indeed, it does make it harder to gauge.

[DrungoHazewood]

Good point about Canseco.

Did anyone ever demonstrate conclusively that the balls were different? I'm not saying they weren't, I don't remember. I know a lot of players and managers were convinced they were. Along those same lines, we can throw in the changing strike zone and a dozen new, less spacious ballparks as contributors to a bias toward offense from 1992 on.

Indeed, it does make it harder to gauge.

El Gordo has linked before to some data and research that pretty conclusively showed the ball was changed. MLB, of course, will never admit it. How else would you explain the massive year-to-year jumps in '87 and again in '94? From '86 to '87 homers went up 17%, and again by 17% from '93-'94. Remember, it was '92 when OPACY was built, and '93 when the Rockies and Marlins were born, but '94 when the homers shot up.

[El Gordo]

Good point about Canseco.

Did anyone ever demonstrate conclusively that the balls were different? I'm not saying they weren't, I don't remember. I know a lot of players and managers were convinced they were. Along those same lines, we can throw in the changing strike zone and a dozen new, less spacious ballparks as contributors to a bias toward offense from 1992 on.

Indeed, it does make it harder to gauge.

I found this site pretty convincing: http://highboskage.com/juiced-ball.shtml and take a look at these different balls:http://steroids-and-baseball.com/changing-baseball.shtml

[Riggodrill44]

Wow, you're seriously going with the "PED's don't help you become a better player" argument? It's been a while since I've heard that one.[/QUO

you tell me

http://www.baseball-reference.com/players/c/canseoz01.shtml

[scOtt]

you tell me

http://www.baseball-reference.com/players/c/canseoz01.shtml

Wha? Jose's no talent brother proves that steroids don't help???

I think you may be as clueless as your namesake.

[DrungoHazewood]

Wha? Jose's no talent brother proves that steroids don't help???

I think you may be as clueless as your namesake.

Well, there are the folks who think steroids have the power to dramatically transform someone come rank mediocrity to good major leaguer.

Clearly not in this case.

[scOtt]

Well, there are the folks who think steroids have the power to dramatically transform someone come rank mediocrity to good major leaguer.

Clearly not in this case.

Ok. That at least explains it a little bit.

[Riggodrill44]

Wha? Jose's no talent brother proves that steroids don't help???

I think you may be as clueless as your namesake.

His brother is his twin.Talk about case test.You couldn't have dreamed of a better case.2 brothers,twins both baseball players and both on the juice.

You tell me why one is heads and heels better than the other?It's talent plain simple god given talent.No drug is going to make you a better player.The proof is Ozzie.

[Nigel Tufnel]

His brother is his twin.Talk about case test.You couldn't have dreamed of a better case.2 brothers,twins both baseball players and both on the juice.

You tell me why one is heads and heels better than the other?It's talent plain simple god given talent.No drug is going to make you a better player.The proof is Ozzie.

Well, it's true that I could take every PED there is, and never be good enough to play MLB. So in that sense I agree with you.

On the other hand, if you take a guy who already has MLB talent and add PED's... well, looking at the numbers, it's hard for me to agree that those players weren't made better by drugs.

[24fps]

If you want to know just how different identical twins can be, marry one.

[Florida_Osfan]

You think taking a shot will make you a better baseball player.You can't bottle what it takes to play baseball at that level.

This whole mess reminds me of my youth.Someone is screaming at the top

of their lungs "He cheated" on the play ground.They just need to be heard and acknowledge but it doesn't change the facts.You don't know who did what and you will probably never know.You can only look at the numbers and do what those numbers say....HOF

Huh? Reread his post, man. He acknowledged that Raffy would be a good ballplayer without the PEDs, but simply added the caveat that those drugs turned him and his decline into HOF numbers. It's not farfetched to buy into the notion that a good ballplayer with a 290avg and 15-20 HR power can turn those numbers into 300 and 20-25 HR. Couple that with quicker rehab and your belief the voters should "do what the numbers say" doesn't hold water.