Dice-K Looking at Surgery...

[dorfmac]

Here is a guy who had experienced great success in Japan, and during his early time in MLB. He had his own effective, albeit unorthodox by American standards, throwing plan and did things his way successfully.

The Red Sox from the start made attempts to not only just tinker with, but make wholesale changes to his workouts and the way he trained for MLB. This not only led to a great deal of tension between the team and player, but seems to also have effected Dice-K negatively with regards to his on-field performance.

The further away he moved from his original work-out routine, the more injuries he seems to sustain. Now, he is looking at surgery for a damaged elbow.

Does anyone else think that the Red Sox ruined him?

[Can_of_corn]

Here is a guy who had experienced great success in Japan, and during his early time in MLB. He had his own effective, albeit unorthodox by American standards, throwing plan and did things his way successfully.

The Red Sox from the start made attempts to not only just tinker with, but make wholesale changes to his workouts and the way he trained for MLB. This not only led to a great deal of tension between the team and player, but seems to also have effected Dice-K negatively with regards to his on-field performance.

The further away he moved from his original work-out routine, the more injuries he seems to sustain. Now, he is looking at surgery for a damaged elbow.

Does anyone else think that the Red Sox ruined him?

Nope, I think he ruined himself. He showed up out of shape and steadfastly refused to alter a workout plan centered around pitching once a week not once every five days.

[Frobby]

I have no idea, but here is what I do know: the Sox spent $102 mm (posting fee and salary) over 6 years for this guy, and got 2 good years out of him. One of those years wasn't even that good (4.40 ERA). It's annoying that the Sox can get away with mistakes like that, while a similar mistake would cripple us.

[waroriole]

I have no idea, but here is what I do know: the Sox spent $102 mm (posting fee and salary) over 6 years for this guy, and got 2 good years out of him. One of those years wasn't even that good (4.40 ERA). It's annoying that the Sox can get away with mistakes like that, while a similar mistake would cripple us.

Yep, then throw in 85M for Lackey that is as good as wasted and they still have enough to go sign AGon for 23M a season and Crawford for 7/142. It's funny when the Sox, or their fans, complain about the MFY.

That sucks for Dice-K, TJ surgery. You have to wonder if his career is close to over.

[O-The-Memories]

Yep, then throw in 85M for Lackey that is as good as wasted and they still have enough to go sign AGon for 23M a season and Crawford for 7/142. It's funny when the Sox, or their fans, complain about the MFY.

That sucks for Dice-K, TJ surgery. You have to wonder if his career is close to over.

What kills me is that the Red Sox can sign guys to awful contracts and still contend. We sign guys to bad contracts too, but for less money. It cripples us and causes us to lose for 14 straight seasons, while they contend. It comes down to international scouting and player development in the minors. We are awful at both of those, at least when it comes to developing MLB positional talent. Our results with pitchers are only mixed because recently we've done well with Arrieta, Matusz, and Britton. But it's hard to forget about Hayden Penn, Adam Loewen, and guys like Hobgood.

[Blizzard1090]

Yep, then throw in 85M for Lackey that is as good as wasted and they still have enough to go sign AGon for 23M a season and Crawford for 7/142. It's funny when the Sox, or their fans, complain about the MFY.That sucks for Dice-K, TJ surgery. You have to wonder if his career is close to over.

That is the main reason I can't stand Red Sox brass and their fan base. Yes, the Yankees still spend more and could have outbid the Red Sox if they wanted to on Crawford but the fact remains Boston spent almost $300 million this offseason(one of which was to pay A-Gon who they got for unproven prospects), have blown teams out of the water on other players as well and are always in the top five for payroll.

Yet, they like to portray themselves as the little engine that could. Bull, they are a small version of the Yankees and nothing more.

[Frobby]

What kills me is that the Red Sox can sign guys to awful contracts and still contend. We sign guys to bad contracts too, but for less money. It cripples us and causes us to lose for 14 straight seasons, while they contend. It comes down to international scouting and player development in the minors. We are awful at both of those, at least when it comes to developing MLB positional talent. Our results with pitchers are only mixed because recently we've done well with Arrieta, Matusz, and Britton. But it's hard to forget about Hayden Penn, Adam Loewen, and guys like Hobgood.

Well, I agree with what you are saying, but you are glossing over the fact that not every Red Sox signing fails. They signed Manny for 10/$200 mm and got their money's worth. They didn't develop Ortiz, but they saw he had talent and got him and got richly rewarded. When you think about it, those two guys were really the heart of the great Red Sox teams of the last decade. That said, the Sox have outdrafted us and outdeveloped us, for sure.

[Gurgi]

They have used their TV network and large ex pat fan base to turn themselves into the second richest franchise. It was always Yankees then the Dodgers. I think you have to say it is now Yankees, RedSox.

Imagine the two richest teams in your division and then the Rays one of the best run teams. It leaves us having to face mega money and brilliance. We have none of that. We are middle of the pack money wise and at the bottom I think management wise.

I think it is almost hopeless for us. But ACLF!!!

(Angelos cant live forever!)

[isestrex]

I think he never had the drive to become really good over here.

He dominated in Japan, and at such an early age, that he never developed a sense of determination to become the best. Once he came over here and was told he would have to do things differently, he basically stopped caring and didn't bother to try and improve his game. No drive, no reason, no passion, but plenty of $$$

[Blizzard1090]

Well, I agree with what you are saying, but you are glossing over the fact that not every Red Sox signing fails. They signed Manny for 10/$200 mm and got their money's worth. They didn't develop Ortiz, but they saw he had talent and got him and got richly rewarded. When you think about it, those two guys were really the heart of the great Red Sox teams of the last decade. That said, the Sox have outdrafted us and outdeveloped us, for sure.

They were also linked to PEDS as well though. I have no doubt Manny was on them the whole time he was with the Red Sox so my praise for him is lacking.

[Frobby]

They were also linked to PEDS as well though. I have no doubt Manny was on them the whole time he was with the Red Sox so my praise for him is lacking.

Oh, I'm not disagreeing with you at all about that. But the point I'm making is that the Red Sox are a very wealthy team that can spend a lot of money on free agents and still succeed if some of their acquisitions are busts. Teams like the Orioles have a much smaller margin of error. We can't afford to spend $102 mm on a pitcher and have him fail.

[Blizzard1090]

Oh, I'm not disagreeing with you at all about that. But the point I'm making is that the Red Sox are a very wealthy team that can spend a lot of money on free agents and still succeed if some of their acquisitions are busts. Teams like the Orioles have a much smaller margin of error. We can't afford to spend $102 mm on a pitcher and have him fail.

100% with you on that. The Yanks and Red Sox can absorb bad contracts and not blink. The rest of the teams can't do the same.

[Crazysilver03]

Well, Dice-K does indeed need TJ surgery. On a related note, the Red Sox have also lost Rich Hill for the rest of the year.

[The Epic]

Not Rich Hill!

[O-The-Memories]

Not Rich Hill!

How is Rich Hill still even on a MLB roster? He had one of the best curveballs I've seen when he was on, but man, that guy couldn't find the plate to save his life when he was with us. Do teams value past success that much, even when it was years ago since Rich Hill was an effective pitcher?