It's time for Andy to get "MacPhailed"

[PrivateO]

We need a younger guy, with fresh ideas that understands some of the more advanced stats and that will be able to operate autonomously.

Until that happens these are nothing but lateral moves.

And there is no way this is going to happen with Peter Angelos as owner.

[Tony-OH]

It hurts our ability to sign the garbage FAs who want another contract after coming here.

But its not even close to the #1 reason why they aren't attracting FAs.

Who in your opinion was the last marquee Free agent the Orioles signed? Tejada? Ramon Hernandez? What year was that? Now maybe it's because it's not MacPhail's style (I would tend to agree with that), but I also don't hear many premium free agents talk about Baltimore anymore. Why is that? If being in the AL East is not an important factor, then what is? Why do you feel we are no longer a premier destination like we were back in mid-late 90s?

[Sports Guy]

Who in your opinion was the last marquee Free agent the Orioles signed? Tejada? Ramon Hernandez? What year was that? Now maybe it's because it's not MacPhail's style (I would tend to agree with that), but I also don't hear many premium free agents talk about Baltimore anymore. Why is that? If being in the AL East is not an important factor, then what is? Why do you feel we are no longer a premier destination like we were back in mid-late 90s?

Because we don't win Tony...Why would anyone want to come here? We can't win.

So, then what is the next reason they come? MONEY!

Guess what losing, poorly franchise always offers less money to the premium FAs than they are going to get?

You got it...The Orioles.

If we offered Fielder 8/180, is he coming here? In all likelihood, yes he is. He won't care that Boston and NY are in our division. He will care about his paycheck.

That's just the reality.

The Orioles must overpay because they are losers and they won't overpay because they just don't believe in it.

They aren't losers because of Boston and NY...They are losers because they are terrible at what they do.

[Dwight Schrute]

This sounds like tin foil hat malarky to me.

Really? Name one thing the team excels at or even does very well.

[TonySoprano]

One could also argue that Tampa Bay has the same number of playoff appearances (two) in the past three years as do NY and Boston, plus Tampa Bay has two division titles.

Go back ten years if you want. Under a balanced schedule, we'd play Boston and NY, about 24 times instead of 36. Let's assume, since 2001 when the unbalanced schedule began, we won all of those twelve games against other teams (not named Oakland) , and that's being very, very generous. In what year would those twelve extra wins put us in playoff contention? 2004? The division we're in puts us at a disadvantage, but the biggest disadvantage by far that we have has been self-inflicted by management, specifically Angelos. In the prior eleven seasons, we have a winning record against three of the thirteen American League opponents.

2000-2010

00S-A	W	L	PCTOAK	26	65	0.286NYY	67	129	0.342BOS	73	123	0.372TOR	80	119	0.402CLE	30	44	0.405CHW	36	48	0.429LAA	43	56	0.434MIN	36	42	0.462SEA	48	55	0.466TEX	49	55	0.471DET	40	39	0.506TBR	101	97	0.510KCR	51	30	0.63000S-A	680	902	0.430

[Tony-OH]

One could also argue that Tampa Bay has the same number of playoff appearances (two) in the past three years as do NY and Boston, plus Tampa Bay has two division titles.

Go back ten years if you want. Under a balanced schedule, we'd play Boston and NY, about 24 times instead of 36. Let's assume, since 2001 when the unbalanced schedule began, we won all of those twelve games against other teams (not named Oakland) , and that's being very, very generous. In what year would those twelve extra wins put us in playoff contention? 2004? The division we're in puts us at a disadvantage, but the biggest disadvantage by far that we have has been self-inflicted by management, specifically Angelos. In the prior eleven seasons, we have a winning record against three of the thirteen American League opponents.

2000-2010

00S-A	W	L	PCTOAK	26	65	0.286NYY	67	129	0.342BOS	73	123	0.372TOR	80	119	0.402CLE	30	44	0.405CHW	36	48	0.429LAA	43	56	0.434MIN	36	42	0.462SEA	48	55	0.466TEX	49	55	0.471DET	40	39	0.506TBR	101	97	0.510KCR	51	30	0.63000S-A	680	902	0.430

But, the question remains, are we partially bad because we can not attract good players unless we significantly overpay due to the fact that players don't see us being able to compete?

I really don't think we disagree all that much. I agree that the Orioles have been their own worse enemy, but the difference is I believe if we were not in the AL East we would be much closer to competing for a playoff spot. I don't think our Division is the only reason or even the main reason for our "suckitude" but it certainly contributes to the feeling that we have a long way to go. That feeling of hopelessness felt by a lot of fans permeates through baseball. Players are not stupid. They've heard the stories and they know the payrolls. Now the good news is that a lot of the negative things are in the past and the organization has taken some steps forward, but I think we all agree there hasn't been enough steps forward and we still have a long way to go. The problem is due to our Division, we have a lot longer way then the 25 other teams that don't have to worry about New York and Boston.

[DrungoHazewood]

But, the question remains, are we partially bad because we can not attract good players unless we significantly overpay due to the fact that players don't see us being able to compete?

I really don't think we disagree all that much. I agree that the Orioles have been their own worse enemy, but the difference is I believe if we were not in the AL East we would be much closer to competing for a playoff spot. I don't think our Division is the only reason or even the main reason for our "suckitude" but it certainly contributes to the feeling that we have a long way to go. That feeling of hopelessness felt by a lot of fans permeates through baseball. Players are not stupid. They've heard the stories and they know the payrolls. Now the good news is that a lot of the negative things are in the past and the organization has taken some steps forward, but I think we all agree there hasn't been enough steps forward and we still have a long way to go. The problem is due to our Division, we have a lot longer way then the 25 other teams that don't have to worry about New York and Boston.

I think everyone agrees more than disagrees here. The team hasn't done enough to build a winning organization in any Major League division. Heck, you could argue that a lot of the teams they've fielded over the past 15 years wouldn't have won the Japanese Leagues.

But there is an impact from the division. Not just the numerical disadvantage from the extra games on the schedule against .600 teams. I think it's played a role in the annual collapses the team has. They look up in July, they're already 10 games out, and now they've got a stretch run where they're playing the Yanks and Sox and Rays and Jays every other game the rest of the year. Who wouldn't look at that and wish the season would just go ahead and end?

[TonySoprano]

Who in your opinion was the last marquee Free agent the Orioles signed? Tejada? Ramon Hernandez? What year was that? Now maybe it's because it's not MacPhail's style (I would tend to agree with that), but I also don't hear many premium free agents talk about Baltimore anymore. Why is that? If being in the AL East is not an important factor, then what is? Why do you feel we are no longer a premier destination like we were back in mid-late 90s?

To answer your question, I'd say Tejada (1st tour). Prior to that, who was the last marquee free agent? Albert Belle in 1998? You can count on one hand (give or take a couple fingers) the number of marquee free agents that Angelos has signed since 1994. Robby Alomar, Raffy Palmeiro (1st tour), Belle, Tejada....

ETA

But, the question remains, are we partially bad because we can not attract good players unless we significantly overpay due to the fact that players don't see us being able to compete?

I really don't think we disagree all that much. I agree that the Orioles have been their own worse enemy, but the difference is I believe if we were not in the AL East we would be much closer to competing for a playoff spot. I don't think our Division is the only reason or even the main reason for our "suckitude" but it certainly contributes to the feeling that we have a long way to go. That feeling of hopelessness felt by a lot of fans permeates through baseball. Players are not stupid. They've heard the stories and they know the payrolls. Now the good news is that a lot of the negative things are in the past and the organization has taken some steps forward, but I think we all agree there hasn't been enough steps forward and we still have a long way to go. The problem is due to our Division, we have a lot longer way then the 25 other teams that don't have to worry about New York and Boston.

You'd be surprised, as I was crunching the numbers, that a balanced schedule adds, on average, two wins, tops, to our total. See my thread for the data.

[eddie83]

Because we don't win Tony...Why would anyone want to come here? We can't win.

So, then what is the next reason they come? MONEY!

Guess what losing, poorly franchise always offers less money to the premium FAs than they are going to get?

You got it...The Orioles.

If we offered Fielder 8/180, is he coming here? In all likelihood, yes he is. He won't care that Boston and NY are in our division. He will care about his paycheck.

That's just the reality.

The Orioles must overpay because they are losers and they won't overpay because they just don't believe in it.

They aren't losers because of Boston and NY...They are losers because they are terrible at what they do.

So should MacPhail have overpayed for a multi-year player to get him even if he didn't think it was the right time to do it?

[DrungoHazewood]

To answer your question, I'd say Tejada (1st tour). Prior to that, who was the last marquee free agent? Albert Belle in 1998? You can count on one hand (give or take a couple fingers) the number of marquee free agents that Angelos has signed since 1994. Robby Alomar, Raffy Palmeiro (1st tour), Belle, Tejada....

You don't even need a finger to count the marquee free agents they signed prior to 1994.

[eddie83]

I read these two words and it hit me that they describe the organization to a T. Take the recent draft, after Bundy they did they bare minimum they possibly could. They do the bare minimum in the international market. They do the bare minimum in scouting. There obvious goal is merely a .500 record (again I would say that is a bare minimum goal). They do the bare minimum in terms of marketing the team and getting people to come to the park (as Tony correctly points out). They sign middling free agents way past their prime because they think the average fan isn't intelligent enough to realize they are washed up and will be like, "hey cool we got Vlad". Every single facet of this club is minimum requirement and half ass. As Trea pointed out earlier in the thread, they can't even go all in on a strategy. They seemingly model themselves after Tampa but the way we follow the model is a dumpster fire compared to the way Tampa executes it. People are actually praising Macphail in other threads saying that in four years he took us from laughing stock to not quite as big of a laughing stock essentially. I agree he inherited a sh*t show. But how anyone can be satisfied with what he's done when there are 20 things he could be doing but isn't that are pointed out here on a message board by fans who don't even work in the game is beyond me. Wherever you work, if the company was in the crapper four years ago, would you be satisfied that your company is now mediocre knowing that there are so many things that could be done that don't require Yankee or Red Sox money to execute, but aren't being done? Its either laziness, or too much concern for the bottom line, which I feel is penny wise/pound foolish when you consider how much more money there is to be made if we just start winning with a little consistency. Sorry I went off in a million different directions but I feel better now.

{Clark} Where's the tylenol? {Griswold}

The end goal isn't a .500 record. They have signed 1yr players because they were trying to be more competitive knowing that they weren't close enough to contention in this division. How you build your team is directly tied to the division you play in.Who in the organization acted like they were contending this year?

[TonySoprano]

You don't even need a finger to count the marquee free agents they signed prior to 1994.

If you go by their career prior to Baltimore, relative to their era, you have Freddy Lynn, and maybe, Lee Lacy.

[DrungoHazewood]

If you go by their career prior to Baltimore, relative to their era, you have Freddy Lynn, and maybe, Lee Lacy.

That's a stretch. Lynn was 33 and was already missing 1/3 of the season most years. Lacy was 37 and had played 125 games in a season once.

[eddie83]

That's a stretch. Lynn was 33 and was already missing 1/3 of the season most years. Lacy was 37 and had played 125 games in a season once.

Aase was signed that year as well I think.

[Tony-OH]

To answer your question, I'd say Tejada (1st tour). Prior to that, who was the last marquee free agent? Albert Belle in 1998? You can count on one hand (give or take a couple fingers) the number of marquee free agents that Angelos has signed since 1994. Robby Alomar, Raffy Palmeiro (1st tour), Belle, Tejada....

ETA

You'd be surprised, as I was crunching the numbers, that a balanced schedule adds, on average, two wins, tops, to our total. See my thread for the data.

I don't think you are taking the psychological toll into effect. It's not as easy as just replacing one team with another. Even so, I don't know how you crunched your numbers but you need some new math if you think being in the AL East only costs us two games a year.