Stephen Drew...perfect example of why you didn't need to rush to sign Hardy

[StottyByNature]

Well, he didn't do it this time.

Its wrong when you are a team with a ton of holes. I am not saying the extension was wrong...I am saying that not waiting to see what all your options are is wrong.

And don't tell me that he had all of the options in front of him because things change.

You have brought up Reyes...At this point, the Mets are not trading him. They are hoping they can extend him.

It would have just been Hardy on the market.

I think one point that we are overlooking is the probability of a player signing an extension later on in the season. Players are more willing to negotiate earlier (see Pujols, Albert) than they are later. The reason, as with any other occupation, is they want to feel valued and that their team is loyal to them. If a team waits to see what is out there, the player can sense that as well and is generally less likely to sign an extension. It's the "if you're looking then I'm looking" dynamic. I'm not saying that is definitely what happened in this case, I just think it's another point to consider.

[JDubs]

Well, he didn't do it this time.

Its wrong when you are a team with a ton of holes. I am not saying the extension was wrong...I am saying that not waiting to see what all your options are is wrong.

And don't tell me that he had all of the options in front of him because things change.

You have brought up Reyes...At this point, the Mets are not trading him. They are hoping they can extend him.

It would have just been Hardy on the market.

Warning: These posts contain opinions stated as facts. Proceed with caution.

[Frobby]

I think one point that we are overlooking is the probability of a player signing an extension later on in the season. Players are more willing to negotiate earlier (see Pujols, Albert) than they are later. The reason, as with any other occupation, is they want to feel valued and that their team is loyal to them. If a team waits to see what is out there, the player can sense that as well and is generally less likely to sign an extension. It's the "if you're looking then I'm looking" dynamic. I'm not saying that is definitely what happened in this case, I just think it's another point to consider.

Just to follow up on this, you have to remember we are dealing with human beings here. In the spring, the two sides agreed not to discuss an extension yet, that they wanted to wait a couple of months see how comfortable Hardy was in Baltimore and vice versa. By June, it was apparent that both sides wanted to talk extension, and they agreed to try to get something by the all-star break. There probably had already been serious discussions about the pararmeters of a deal that both sides were comfortable with, and an understanding that both sides were willing to work to get the deal done. With that context, it would have been against the spirit of the previous discussions for MacPhail to suddenly do an about face and say, we'd rather string this along until the end of July to see what we can get for Hardy in a trade before we commit. And that's just not the kind of guy MacPhail is, and I'm glad he's not.

[Singleton]

The other thread was locked but it brings up a point.

Had the Orioles not rushed to extend Hardy, perhaps the Dbacks are going at Hardy very hard right now. Perhaps they are putting together a package that you can't say no to.

You could be right. Some reports have the Dbacks as sellers now. If true, I presume it is because the Dbacks had holes to fill with Drew healthy and now feel like acquiring a shortstop AND plugging other holes is too much.

BTW, I wouldn't be surprised to see Izzy get moved there for an unexciting minor leaguer.

[Enjoy Terror]

The Orioles don't have another shortstop in the pipeline for two years; they weren't going to trade Hardy away. The Orioles would need to be wowed, and we've dealt with the revolving door at shortstop in the past.

A shortstop under contract would logically make the trade better for ARI because they don't lose him after a season in which they aren't competing, and they haven't lost the prospects to complete the trade as well. Of course, this also makes the trade better for Baltimore because the prospects would have to be better, because Hardy is a player in demand and under team control.

[JERSEYORIOLE]

Imagine being open minded. Ever try it SG? Nearly 100,000 posts and about 99% about what is wrong with the Orioles. You would be miserable if this team ever had a 100 win season. What would you write about? Do you have a NTC?

I can't wait to see what happens if the Orioles don't trade Guthrie. His head is going to explode,lol

[flashjordnk]

The Orioles would need to be wowed, and we've dealt with the revolving door at shortstop in the past.

Are you wowwed with Hardy? Did the O's allow themselves to get wowwed in this situation? Would the parameters of the deal or any of your points about what Baltimore needed change if they wanted until Aug. 1 to sign this deal?

You realize that we simply missed an opportunity here for some potential leverage right? Also...maybe if we would have been dangling Hardy, the Giants wait on Keppinger and then if they lose on the Beltran sweepstakes become major players in the Hardy sweepstakes.

I know we don't HAVE a solution for next year, but isn't the question do we NEED a solution next year at SS?

[Pedro Cerrano]

I think the expectations for what Hardy would have netted us in a deal are exaggerated by some posters here.

[cb3fsu]

I don't have a problem with signing Hardy. I'd rather add good players instead of prospects at this point. I hope we keep Guthrie too.

I'm sick of this perpetual development process we are undergoing.

Unless they get some pitching nothing will matter, but I have faith in Britton, Matusz and Arrieta.

They need to spend some money and sign an impact SP. to go along with those guys.

[Fan4Life]

Let's also remember that Hardy would have been a rental for 2 1/2 months. Just how many holes do you think we would have filled?

As many as it takes to support the premise.

[OsLuvrInKy]

And what percentage of the board would be happy with no solution at SS next year? 1% or less?

SG would because that would mean we had traded Hardy.

[Ooooooohhhh!!!!]

I'd rather have a hole at SS and be better positioned to win in a couple years than to have SS filled and be stuck in mediocrity (and mediocrity is being generous). Frankly I'm tired of striving for .500.

[flashjordnk]

And what percentage of the board would be happy with no solution at SS next year? 1% or less?

At what cost. This statement in a vacuum is meaningless. What if meant getting a top 50 and a top 100 prospect back? I'm not saying it would have definitely happened. But what if SF loses it's next 5 games and Arizona feels like they have a window. If Hardy isn't signed yet, they get two picks back, and maybe that's enough to justify the move.

I'm simply saying...we hamstrung ourselves and a package of some combination of a reliever, Guthrie or Hardy could really have gotten us something. But we'll simply never know. All for signing a guy 15 days sooner.

[flashjordnk]

The valid question is what serves us better in 2 years, Hardy signed at 7M or 2 prospects who may or may not turn into decent ML players?

People exaggerate Hardy's health. He's good when he's healthy. I've posted before about how Reyes has actually played more games over the last 5 years than Hardy has.

Also depends on the prospects. Is one a SP, because we're looking needy in terms of depth there right now. Also what about a 1b? That seems to be just as big of a hole for this team right now.

There aren't easy answers to these questions but deciding we liked Hardy better than all potential packages before finding out what said potential packages may be seems like a poor approach. I'm not even saying we need to trade Hardy if not signed...(though I advocated for his trade and still do). This thread is about the potential missed leverage and opportunities lost. Desperate teams are much more desperate on July 30, and we signed the guy on July 18. I just don't get why those 12 days mattered so much to AM...

[cb3fsu]

Sadly, as O's fans the only exciting things we have become accustomed to are mid season trades (as sellers) so we are conditioned to look at what our good players can fetch in prospects.

Trading Guthrie and Hardy for a couple of Josh Bell's doesn't always make your club better. It's not that I don't believe in player development or a long term plan, but it certainly seems like trading an allstar caliber player, or your best SP for guys who never make it can set you back just as far as anything else.

The truth is, they need more Guthrie's and Hardy's. How many seasons can we afford to waste waiting around for prospects who get hurt or never make it?

A month ago people were talking about how you have to keep Britton up if the Orioles are in contention...and now not only this season but next season is being thrown away.

This team has a really nice group of core players

1B

2B Roberts?

SS Hardy

3B Reynolds

C Weiters

CF Jones

RF Markakis

LF Reimold

DH Scott

1. Guthrie

2. Britton

3. Matusz

4. Tillman

5.

You add in an couple of impact free agents and I think the team can be really exciting. Just because adding the poo poo platter last off season and calling it a middle of a lineup didnt work out doesn't mean the rest of the team is garbage, they are just players that need some #3 and #4 hitter help.

Seriously, hoping a bunch of 24 year lds are going to put it together at the same time is setting yourself up for failure, especially if the veterans you are going to supplement them with are 100 years old.