Mussina elected to Orioles Hall of Fame! (Also Dauer and Youse) w/Mussina reaction

[DrungoHazewood]

Another thing I don't get is why some fans expect loyalty from the players to the organization, when there is no loyalty running in the other direction. The Orioles have never been reluctant to trade players who have been important to the organization, or cut them. They traded Frank Robinson after he'd helped to lead the team to four pennants in six years. You know what? Frank was my favorite player, but I'm over it. You could look at the list of the Orioles Hall of Fame, and half the players on there were traded away by the team. No loyalty there, but we're going to villify a player for leaving?

In that same vein, what are we supposed to do with players like Doyle Alexander and Grant Jackson? They were supposed to bleed black and orange as Orioles, but then the team turned around and traded them to the despicable Yankees. The Orioles forced them to play for the enemy. Who am I supposed to hate in this case?

So does Cust signing with the Yankees today eliminate him from future consideration?

No. I will sit back and eagerly await the day in 2016 or so when Cust, Knott, and House get inducted all at the same time.

Not true. I have nothing but respect for what Mike Mu$$ina did on the field while an Oriole. I'd imagine that most people who dislike Mu$$ina dislike him because he's the only drafted and developed Orioles All-star to ever leave the team and join the arch-enemy Yankees. Many people don't hold that against him and that's their opinion, but for me, as the only one to ever do that, he's not HoF worthy, and especially not on the first ballot.

There's ballots? I thought a bunch of old dudes from the Oriole Advocates got together at some Elk's Lodge, had a few drinks, and started throwing out names. Who knew?

Coincidentally, the rivalry was further heightened by Cito Gaston's reluctance to put in Mike Mussina in the 1993 All-Star Game.

Cito still sucks.

And how much better was the world, the universe, or life itself when it was still possible to have the standings look like they did in 1992?

1. Toronto

2. Milwaukee

3. Baltimore

4. Cleveland

5. New York

6. Detroit

7. Boston

In 2012 it's actually against the very laws of physics for both the Yanks and Sox to finish out of the playoffs at the same time, much less both under .500.

[MrOrange82]

Seems like I missed the boat on the pro/con-Moose in the HoF debate, but nonetheless...I'm unequivocally in the "pro" camp. Moose remains one of the best pitchers I've ever had the good fortune to watch in person, and his leaving for the Yankees speaks more to the Orioles' abysmal management/ownership than it does to Mike's avarice/disloyalty.

The O's were fortunate to have him for as long as they did.

[Oriology]

How easily we forget...In 1996 Mussina had the 4th highest WAR on the team. In 1997 he was #1. (BBref)

Your stance seems to indicate you'd rather not had him at all if he was going to desert you like he did. And yet he 1996 playoff defeat you so bitterly hate may not happen without him.

I don't think my stance entails that nor did I mention that at any point. My stance boils down simply to the fact that Mussina, while perhaps slighted by Angelos, was offered a decent contract. He rejected it, and in doing so he joined the team despised most by Orioles fans. I am glad we had him for the years that we did, but taking into account his total body of work/decisions, I have no desire for him to be in the O's HOF. Hypothetically speaking, if he tears a labrum in 1999 and never pitches again, I would want him in the O's HOF. But, since in 2000 he rejected the Orioles in an act that, while perhaps not detestable and worthy of a personal disdain, was decidedly in opposition to the success of the Orioles and in favor their most hated adversary, I would prefer if he were not in the O's HOF. I do not harbor a personal vendetta against Mussina, though.

[Gurgi]

Also one other thing. No matter what Mussina might say. I really dont get the feeling he cares to be in the Orioles "Hall of Fame". I dont think he cares one bit.

[beaner]

The results of the poll really speaks volumes to how most of us feel, and likely will lead to way more cheers than boos on induction day. Someone said something like this earlier, but the idea that Mike Bordick (with all due respect) is in the O's HOF and there was potential that Mussina wouldn't be is silly.

The fact that there's a "Yankees Fanatics" ad at the top of my page as I type this is quite comical.

Congrats to all of the inductees.

[JohnD]

I'm with Tony. Besides, this Orioles HOF isn't exactly Cooperstown, anyway. I'd hardly call it a big deal anymore. To me, the real Orioles HOF is the numbers hanging on the facade and standing outside Eutaw Street. He'll never make it there. I'd have preferred if he didn't make the brick wall back there either.[/QU

Really? This surprises me coming from you. Other than the baseball hall of famers the Orioles have had a lot of great players come through this organization. I'm happy and grateful that there is a place for us to acknowledge guys like Flanagan, Powell, Singleton, McNally, et al. We've had a lot of great players in this organization.

The problem is, for me, most all of those legends were before my time. That's not to say I'm not appreciative of their accomplishments. But, it happened either before I was born, or before I was old enough to recognize. The first winning team I can remember was 89. Those teams in the 90s were great fun to watch, but how many of them were homegrown players? The ones who achieve that iconic status so many of the older players do? That's what it is for me. Many great players deserving of their names on the brick wall there.

And I'm still bitter about the Mussina thing. Mostly because it was the first time a player I grew up being a fan of and was at such an iconic status up and left for a team that I viewed as a legitimate rival. His reasons are his, and from an objective level, I can't quibble with them. But I'm not being objective in this regard. At the time it was a huge slap in the face to me, and now it is the most single moment signifying the recent downfall of this organization. More than anything else, it was the start of the dismal times this team refuses to get out of. So I hold that against him, too, whether it's fair or not, knowing it's probably not.

[Il BuonO]

I am amazed at fans who blame Angelos for Mussina leaving when he was clearly played by Mussina and his agent. Angelos asked for and was told he'd have a chance to beat any offers and they didn't do that. Mussina's (and his agent's) word means nothing.

Pure brilliance. Did you forget the final offer? Setting that aside, PA is not a negotiator. He is an atty by trade. This has been shown to be the case many times in negotiations after Mussina.

Angelos never kept his word and I don't think he ever had any intention of doing so. History backs that up more than once. I bet if you ask Mussina, though, he would have taken the final offer by the O's IF that had been presented to him from the beginning avoiding all the months of PA and his fruitless negotiations.

Why match the best offer when everybody knows what the market will bear. Just do the right thing and be in the ballpark with that number from the beginning.

[malkusm]

This is important to remember. They didn't just trade Surhoff, they traded Bordick, Charles Johnson, Harold Baines, Will Clark and Mike Timlin. You're being asked to sign a lesser contract with a team that was just gutted after months of posturing and low-ball offers.

Just look at the line-up he had behind him in the first game after the trading deadline (and look at the game he pitched).

http://www.baseball-reference.com/boxes/BAL/BAL200008010.shtml

Fact #1 about this box score: Mussina didn't allow a ball to get out of the infield until the 7th.

Fact #2 about this box score: Gotta love seeing a young Johan Santana pitching the 9th inning of a blowout, and getting shelled by the likes of Luis Matos and Delino DeShields.

[Dipper9]

Its funny how the offer to Tex was seen for what it was, a token offer to make it appear we tried, but yet the final offer to Moose is looked at by some as a deal he should have taken.

[beaner]

In a perfect world, all the great ones would be like Cal, Tony Gwynn, Chipper Jones, Derek Jeter....etc and stay with one team their whole career, but those types are so few and far between in the modern era.

Mussina was tremendous as an Oriole, no one in their right mind would question that. Sure, all of us wish he would have stayed here and not gone to New York, but time heals all wounds, and he should absolutely be recognized as one of the great Orioles of all time.

[MurphDogg]

Its funny how the offer to Tex was seen for what it was, a token offer to make it appear we tried, but yet the final offer to Moose is looked at by some as a deal he should have taken.

If the Orioles truly were promised an opportunity to match his NYY contract and were denied that opportunity, you can't really compare the situations.

[OrioleMagic]

If the Orioles truly were promised an opportunity to match his NYY contract and were denied that opportunity, you can't really compare the situations.

I'm still waiting for a link from MCO'sfan on this.

[Il BuonO]

Mussina and Wren agreed to the numbers in the summer of 1999. Wren told Angelos to take the deal, and history tells us he didn't. It wasn't until the following April (~9 months later) that Angelos agreed to what had been that number (emphasis on the past tense). Mussina's value went up, and then saw Thrift have his fire sale in July 2000, trading away his friend B.J. Surhoff. I'll agree with you that maybe it was spite, but I personally cannot find fault, as it was after all the procrastination from Angelos. Giving Moose the deal in 1999 should have been a no-brainer. It was inexcusable for Angelos to let the situation drag out like he did. Moose wanted 5 years in his previous deal, and was told that we don't give them to pitchers. So he took a 3 year deal, and caught grief from the player's union, only to watch Scott Erickson get a 5 year deal instead.

Its funny how the offer to Tex was seen for what it was, a token offer to make it appear we tried, but yet the final offer to Moose is looked at by some as a deal he should have taken.

Exactly right. Angelos was doing it even back then. If anything, Mussina should have engendered MORE LOYALTY FROM THE TEAM for all his years of service, not the other way around. He was a FA who got low balled, but while you didn't like it but accepted it in the case of Texeira it was pretty hard to take in Mussina's.

[waroriole]

Exactly right. Angelos was doing it even back then. If anything, Mussina should have engendered MORE LOYALTY FROM THE TEAM for all his years of service, not the other way around. He was a FA who got low balled, but while you didn't like it but accepted it in the case of Texeira it was pretty hard to take in Mussina's.

Not to mention that he had already taken a team friendly extension before, which Tom Glavine blasted him for.

[flashjordnk]

...but taking into account his total body of work/decisions...

Oh I hadn't realized that decision making process was a qualification for Orioles Hall of Fame. Why does his decision as a "free agent" not a decision made while an Oriole, have anything to do with his Orioles credentials?

If he went to say...the Royals would you still hate him? Is this purely a Yankee thing? Or a him leaving thing at all thing?