Dan Duquette on O's pitching philosophy: "We don't like the cutter"

[DrungoHazewood]

Wouldn't this also apply to using the cutter? And sort-of contradict your next post?

I don't think so. What I'm saying is that you need to have a structure, a framework, a philosophy. And you need to allow exceptions when necessary, and change the philosophy when it doesn't work.

You can say your goal is to have most players spend X amount of time at each minor league level, but also put Manny Machado in the majors with 2/3rds of a year in AA as his highest experience. Because Manny Machado rocks, and your rules of thumb don't apply to him. In the same vein, you can conclude that cutters have risks attached, young pitchers have risks attached, and it makes most sense for Bundy to work on other stuff right now.

While it's essential to have an ethos, Dude, the worst thing you can do is make everybody stick to it 100% of the time no matter what.

[Lucky Jim]

I don't think so. What I'm saying is that you need to have a structure, a framework, a philosophy. And you need to allow exceptions when necessary, and change the philosophy when it doesn't work.

You can say your goal is to have most players spend X amount of time at each minor league level, but also put Manny Machado in the majors with 2/3rds of a year in AA as his highest experience. Because Manny Machado rocks, and your rules of thumb don't apply to him. In the same vein, you can conclude that cutters have risks attached, young pitchers have risks attached, and it makes most sense for Bundy to work on other stuff right now.

While it's essential to have an ethos, Dude, the worst thing you can do is make everybody stick to it 100% of the time no matter what.

Well, I guess my point was contingent on a no-cutter rule as a bright line. If there's a broad prohibition against it that doesn't take into account the individual pitcher (and thus the individual cutter) then it would seem that the ethos was irrationally rigid. That said, I'm doubting there's a broad prohibition.

[Ven6]

No offense, but that really doesn't say anything.

Actually it does.

It says:

1. much ado about nothing

2. DD's choice of words was more inflammatory than his point

3. the O's organization isn't off on some harebrained scheme

4. I didn't feel the need to repeat the stuff in this thread that has been posted ad nauseam

[snatch311]

I guess this wouldn't even tell the whole story, but:

Hits/Swing:

.126 for Cutter

.127 for Curve

But, the Curve gets more K's (Better Whiff/Foul Ratio)

[DrungoHazewood]

Well, I guess my point was contingent on a no-cutter rule as a bright line. If there's a broad prohibition against it that doesn't take into account the individual pitcher (and thus the individual cutter) then it would seem that the ethos was irrationally rigid. That said, I'm doubting there's a broad prohibition.

Right. I never read Duquette's comments as a broad prohibition. Especially considering that the O's pitchers throw cutters right now, despite getting poor results from them.

[Tony-OH]

Also, I would caution anyone reading too much into DD's "off-putting" tone to the media. He's not good at..uh.. being social. I prefer when he doesn't say a whole lot and it did get him in some trouble in the Sox organization. But his good baseball mind and scouting ability is what he brings to the table. I tend to toss out his weird comments.

I like the fact that he doesn't mince words and says would he thinks. I find it refreshing, even if the tone seems a little harsh. I give Melewski credit for asking the questions and DD for answering them straight.

[Malike]

I wonder just how good Bundy's cutter really is. I remember reading the scouting reports on him out of HS, and them rating his pitches, but I don't remember the cutter being rated at all, let alone, as his best pitch. Now, Dylan feels its his best pitch, maybe, but perhaps when he was being scouted like crazy before the draft, the scouts felt like it wasn't a pitch that would get professional hitters out. Does anyone have any idea where his cutter was rated out of HS? I can't seem to find it.

Edit: I read the article to say that the organization will not teach the cutter to young pitchers, not that the cutter will never be allowed to be used in game at the ML level.

[Tony-OH]

I guess we shall see how insane DD is. Law HATED the Guthrie trade. Who was right on that one? Law didn't like bringing up Machado. You could argue that Machado won the Orioles at least one, and maybe two games. So far, the results back DD. Maybe that is luck. Maybe the Orioles don't keep it up. Or maybe the Orioles are onto something about young pitchers using the cutter and pitchers, in general, using it as a primary pitch. Halladay and Wilson could be outliers. Both also could be struggling now because theybecame too reliant upon the cutter.

All we need to know is that DD has been a GM in two different cities and has the Orioles on track for their first winning record in 15 years. Law is a wannabe scout/journalist who is trying on a schtick to try and get noticed. Law has some contacts no doubt, but he's been in the DD-hater train since his hire and all DD has done is make him look foolish outside of the Korean-kid fiasco. I'm fine with people who want to disagree wwith other people's philoshopies, but to call them "insane", esepcially when you have absolutely no track record of ever developing young pitchers shows he thinks a little too highly of himself.

At the end of the day, I agree with those who say "At least we have a philosophy." I have no idea whether or not throwing a cutter hurts velocity or the development of a curveball, but if DD and Petersen say they do I'm willing to support them until I see evidence that they don't. I tend to disagree with "everyone the same" type of philosophies since each pitcher has little nuances that make them different, but at the same time, if Petersen and DD's research tells them this is the way to go, who am I to question their sanity by implementing that philosophy?

[Tony-OH]

I wonder just how good Bundy's cutter really is. I remember reading the scouting reports on him out of HS, and them rating his pitches, but I don't remember the cutter being rated at all, let alone, as his best pitch. Now, Dylan feels its his best pitch, maybe, but perhaps when he was being scouted like crazy before the draft, the scouts felt like it wasn't a pitch that would get professional hitters out. Does anyone have any idea where his cutter was rated out of HS? I can't seem to find it.

Edit: I read the article to say that the organization will not teach the cutter to young pitchers, not that the cutter will never be allowed to be used in game at the ML level.

The one thing to remember is that Dylan has experience getting high school hitters out until his first pro season. Just because a 19-year old think that's his best pitch does not mean professional scouts who have seen 1,000s of major league baseball games agree. Dylan is a great young talent, but at the end of the day, there is a reason he has professional coaching to help guide him along the way. He may not always agree, but he has to have faith that Petersen/DD are doing what's best for him.

[Malike]

The one thing to remember is that Dylan has experience getting high school hitters out until his first pro season. Just because a 19-year old think that's his best pitch does not mean professional scouts who have seen 1,000s of major league baseball games agree. Dylan is a great young talent, but at the end of the day, there is a reason he has professional coaching to help guide him along the way. He may not always agree, but he has to have faith that Petersen/DD are doing what's best for him.

This is basically what I was saying. He might think its his best pitch, but I had never seen it rated on his scouting reports. I'm just trying to find out if any scouts had rated it, and what it rated as. I almost feel like his father is making excuses for getting touched up after Low A, by saying they took away his best pitch. I want to know who, other than his father and apparently Dylan, think its his best pitch.

[Lucky Jim]

This is basically what I was saying. He might think its his best pitch, but I had never seen it rated on his scouting reports. I'm just trying to find out if any scouts had rated it, and what it rated as. I almost feel like his father is making excuses for getting touched up after Low A, by saying they took away his best pitch. I want to know who, other than his father and apparently Dylan, think its his best pitch.

I've seen it a few places. Here's Stotle from before the draft:

Cutter - Bundy's cutter is an out pitch, with borderline slider depth and late life. He snaps the pitch in the 86-88 mph range, allowing it to serve as a change-of-pace offering. It has developed into his most effective pitch, and could be plus or better at the next level.

http://diamondscapescouting.com/scoutingreports_2011_bundydy.html

[Malike]

I've seen it a few places. Here's Stotle from before the draft:

http://diamondscapescouting.com/scoutingreports_2011_bundydy.html

Thanks, I should have checked Nick's site. Seems like its an effective pitch, and I'm sure they will let him throw it when he gets to the ML club.

[Fan4Life]

all we need to know is that dd has been a gm in two different cities and has the orioles on track for their first winning record in 15 years. Law is a wannabe scout/journalist who is trying on a schtick to try and get noticed. Law has some contacts no doubt, but he's been in the dd-hater train since his hire and all dd has done is make him look foolish outside of the korean-kid fiasco. I'm fine with people who want to disagree wwith other people's philoshopies, but to call them "insane", esepcially when you have absolutely no track record of ever developing young pitchers shows he thinks a little too highly of himself.

at the end of the day, i agree with those who say "at least we have a philosophy." i have no idea whether or not throwing a cutter hurts velocity or the development of a curveball, but if dd and petersen say they do i'm willing to support them until i see evidence that they don't. I tend to disagree with "everyone the same" type of philosophies since each pitcher has little nuances that make them different, but at the same time, if petersen and dd's research tells them this is the way to go, who am i to question their sanity by implementing that philosophy?

amen brother!!!!

[Tony-OH]

I've seen it a few places. Here's Stotle from before the draft:

http://diamondscapescouting.com/scoutingreports_2011_bundydy.html

If he throws it in the 86-88 range, that is slider range more than "cutter" range for a pitcher who throws in the mid-90s. I have heard multiple pitching coaches and front office people over the years not want young pitchers to throw a slider AND curveball. Either way, it might be an effective pitch or it might just be an "out" pitch at the high school level. I don't know because I haven't see nit. At the same time, Bundy's "struggles" have more to do with his occasional lack of command of his off speed pitches then a lack of an out-pitch because he doesn't have his cutter. Maybe they will give it back to him at some time, but Bundy can be a force with his fastball, curveball, change combination if he can command them all.

[Fan4Life]

Thanks, I should have checked Nick's site. Seems like its an effective pitch, and I'm sure they will let him throw it when he gets to the ML club.

I agree. Falling in love with the cutter at the expense of full development is silly. Once he perfects the basics, he'll be throwing this too.