Duquette, "Our best players are going to come up through the farm system."

[Stotle]

They basically paid him all of his arbitration years and then added three additional years of team options. You think Boras would have allowed Wieters to take that deal after his below average start to his career?

I seriously can't tell if you are purposefully being evasive or if someone hit you with a sack of nickels today. Do you honestly think Boras would not have advised Wieters to accept some variation of that contract six days into his MLB career? You think any agent would tell his client, who is over a half of a decade away from becoming a free agent, that he should turn down a reasonable deal guaranteeing him tens of millions of dollars before he his first 50 MLB at bats?

[Can_of_corn]

I seriously can't tell if you are purposefully being evasive or if someone hit you with a sack of nickels today. Do you honestly think Boras would not have advised Wieters to accept some variation of that contract six days into his MLB career? You think any agent would tell his client, who is over a half of a decade away from becoming a free agent, that he should turn down a reasonable deal guaranteeing him tens of millions of dollars before he his first 50 MLB at bats?

I do think the O's would have had to pony up more money then the Rays did. I also think that Wieters, as a Catcher, would have been foolish to turn it down.

[Brendan25]

I seriously can't tell if you are purposefully being evasive or if someone hit you with a sack of nickels today. Do you honestly think Boras would not have advised Wieters to accept some variation of that contract six days into his MLB career? You think any agent would tell his client, who is over a half of a decade away from becoming a free agent, that he should turn down a reasonable deal guaranteeing him tens of millions of dollars before he his first 50 MLB at bats?

Do I think Boras would have advised his agent to turn down a deal that would potentiall pay him 44 million dollars, and when that deal is done he is 30 and past his prime and no potential to get a larger deal? Yes. Boras nor Wieters would have done that deal as a catcher. There is a chance with that deal that Wieters would have made around 20 mil, hit 28-29, got his option declined, and be done. Unless I'm missing something in this deal.

[Frobby]

They basically paid him all of his arbitration years and then added three additional years of team options. You think Boras would have allowed Wieters to take that deal after his below average start to his career?

Different question than whether the Orioles should have tried.

There is risk in these early deals, but also reward if things work out well. The Rays got burned when they gave a deal to Rocco Baldelli for 2006-11, but the amount they lost was peanuts compared to what they saved on the Longoria deal.

[Brendan25]

Different question than whether the Orioles should have tried.

There is risk in these early deals, but also reward if things work out well. The Rays got burned when they gave a deal to Rocco Baldelli for 2006-11, but the amount they lost was peanuts compared to what they saved on the Longoria deal.

The Longoria deal is the most team friendly deal in baseball. The PA got mad because they felt he was bringing the cost of future contracts down. That was not a deal every team can make for their young prospects

[Stotle]

Do I think Boras would have advised his agent to turn down a deal that would potentiall pay him 44 million dollars, and when that deal is done he is 30 and past his prime and no potential to get a larger deal? Yes. Boras nor Wieters would have done that deal as a catcher. There is a chance with that deal that Wieters would have made around 20 mil, hit 28-29, got his option declined, and be done. Unless I'm missing something in this deal.

Remember the part where I typed "advised Wieters to accept some variation of that contract"? End of first line, continuing on the second.

I think it would not have been the same contract Longo signed. But to act like Tampa had some magic scenario that allowed them to put a contract in front of Longo when they did is just disingenuous. Tampa decided they had a potential star and were willing to guarantee him 17 MM for his control years. Maybe Baltimore would have needed to make it closer to $25 or $30MM, or made the extension years vesting in some form, or for more money. But Baltimore absolutely could have locked up Wieters. Ditto Jones.

They decided to wait and see with Jones, and the result was they probably have Jones signed to a contract for which he'll provide esentially the production they are paying for. This difference is one example of why Tampa has had a more talented team on a smaller payroll for several years now.

[Stotle]

I do think the O's would have had to pony up more money then the Rays did. I also think that Wieters, as a Catcher, would have been foolish to turn it down.

Absolutely. Variation on that deal. Maybe it's a vesting option instead of a team option. Maybe only two option years? Maybe larger money for the option options years with larger buyouts? I don't know. But whatever they came up with would end up cheaper than any three year extension they try to work out at this point.

[Brendan25]

Remember the part where I typed "advised Wieters to accept some variation of that contract"? End of first line, continuing on the second.

I think it would not have been the same contract Longo signed. But to act like Tampa had some magic scenario that allowed them to put a contract in front of Longo when they did is just disingenuous. Tampa decided they had a potential star and were willing to guarantee him 17 MM for his control years. Maybe Baltimore would have needed to make it closer to $25 or $30MM, or made the extension years vesting in some form, or for more money. But Baltimore absolutely could have locked up Wieters. Ditto Jones.

They decided to wait and see with Jones, and the result was they probably have Jones signed to a contract for which he'll provide esentially the production they are paying for. This difference is one example of why Tampa has had a more talented team on a smaller payroll for several years now.

So what would you have offered Wieters/Jones 3 years ago?

[Stotle]

The Longoria deal is the most team friendly deal in baseball. The PA got mad because they felt he was bringing the cost of future contracts down. That was not a deal every team can make for their young prospects

Again, this is silly. I guarantee you that the vast majority of prospects would sign a deal in some form similar to Longo's first extension deal if presented the contract upon being called up to the bigs. "Here's enough money to set you up for life -- if your leg is bitten off by a shark tomorrow or any time in the next six years it will not affect your comfortable life. And, if things go as well as they possibly can, you'll be a FA at right around age 30 and can probably tack on another $60-100 million.

[Brendan25]

Again, this is silly. I guarantee you that the vast majority of prospects would sign a deal in some form similar to Longo's first extension deal if presented the contract upon being called up to the bigs. "Here's enough money to set you up for life -- if your leg is bitten off by a shark tomorrow or any time in the next six years it will not affect your comfortable life. And, if things go as well as they possibly can, you'll be a FA at right around age 30 and can probably tack on another $60-100 million.

A catcher is a different situation.

[Stotle]

So what would you have offered Wieters/Jones 3 years ago?

I wouldn't have extended Jones -- I probably would have done exactly what Baltimore did and then traded him last off-season, at the break, or this offseason, depending on the other specifics surrounding the team.

If I were inclined to take the Longo approach to Wieters, probably something along the lines of

09:$0.5M, 10:$0.75M, 11:$1.25M, 12:$2.75M, 13:$5M, 14:$8M, 15:$12M vesting option ($4M buyout), 16:$15M vesting option, 17:$15M vesting option

16/17 vest at end of 15 with cumulative $8MM buyout. In any event, something clearly could be worked out.

[Frobby]

A catcher is a different situation.

Because Wieters (1) is a catcher, (2) has Boras for an agent, (3) had banked $6 mm before ever putting on a major league uniform, and (4) was one of the most hyped prospects of all time, he certainly would have required significantly more than what Longoria got. But that's not to say that there might not have been a deal to be had.

That said, it's not like there are a lot of team out there doing this. Cleveland used to do it a lot.

[Brendan25]

I wouldn't have extended Jones -- I probably would have done exactly what Baltimore did and then traded him last off-season, at the break, or this offseason, depending on the other specifics surrounding the team.

If I were inclined to take the Longo approach to Wieters, probably something along the lines of

09:$0.5M, 10:$0.75M, 11:$1.25M, 12:$2.75M, 13:$5M, 14:$8M, 15:$12M vesting option ($4M buyout), 16:$15M vesting option, 17:$15M vesting option

16/17 vest at end of 15 with cumulative $8MM buyout. In any event, something clearly could be worked out.

What would be the requirements for the vesting option?

[Brendan25]

Because Wieters (1) is a catcher, (2) has Boras for an agent, (3) had banked $6 mm before ever putting on a major league uniform, and (4) was one of the most hyped prospects of all time, he certainly would have required singificantly more than what Longoria got. But that't not to say that there might not have been a deal to be had.

That said, it's not like there are a lot of team out there doing this. Cleveland used to do it a lot.

There was but it would of had to be a lot different then the one Longo got.

[EddieO'sSC]

A catcher is a different situation.

Why so? Being extended early should be more enticing to a catcher in a injury prone position. Plus, many catchers play beyound 30.