Duquette, "Our best players are going to come up through the farm system."

[Tony-OH]

I can't agree with that Tony. The Rays do sign their guys long term, when feasible. The have singed Longoria to a pair of contracts and they signed Wade Davis and Moore to long term deals. They were smart enough to let Crawford walk and trade Kazmir.

The O's signed Roberts, which backfired, Markakis who ended up producing at around market value and Jones which is too early to tell.

They also had to trade guys like Garza and Shields because they weren't able to afford them. Look, the Rays are very good at what they do. They are certainly the model for low-income teams, but my entire point really was that the Orioles should not have to be a low-income team. MASN was supposed to guarantee that yet we've seen nothing to suggest it has helped the Orioles spend money on players. You are absolutely right that we re-signed two players that basically have under performed their contracts (Roberts majorly and Markakis to some extent) and that has hurt a bit, but I just can't understand how a team like the Tigers can afford big contracts but he Orioles have been able to convince a good bit of their fan base that they can't afford that. I just don't buy it.

[Brendan25]

The Rays signed Longo after a couple weeks in the majors. They signed Davis after two seasons and signed Moore early as well.

They signed Wade to a 5 year deal with the last 3 years being team options. They had some special situations and contracts.

[Tx Oriole]

Then do yourself a favor and go root for the Yankees. They're so easy to root for, spending all that money. Go ahead.

For me, the Orioles are the easiest team to root for in the world. I got more pleasure out of last season than any Yankee fan could have had, not just because of what the Orioles did, but how they did it, and the odds they faced. And I'm totally excited to see what this team is able to do this year, no matter what happens the rest of this offseason.

I'm not denigrating the way you feel, but I'm serious in saying that if you truly feel the organization is not committed to winning, is doomed to lose and doesn't care about it's fans, then don't make it so hard on yourself. Find another team to root for.

I agree with you.

[Brendan25]

I didn't necessarily mean this off season, and I honestly rather go after a big time bat than a starter any day. The Orioles have some starting pitching depth, no doubt, and Bundy and Gausman have the potential to be top of the rotation guys, but we don't have that when it comes to impact bats. Buck will probably look at batting Jones or Davis at number four and neither are cleanup hitters. To me that's a big problem. If we are not going to be involved in guys like Hamilton, then the Orioles need to be aggressive in dealing for potential MOO bats by using some of that starting pitching depth.

I cannot disagree about the big bat. I have wanted Tex, I have wanted Dunn, I have wanted Prince. I've been screaming for a big bat for years. I did not want Hamilton. I just don't see the right fit this offseason to acquire that big time bat. And I'm not willing to trade more then we should have to trade to get it. We don't need it that bad. I like Davis a lot more then you and am fine with him and Jones in the middle next year if that means keeping Tillman.

[Can_of_corn]

They also had to trade guys like Garza and Shields because they weren't able to afford them. Look, the Rays are very good at what they do. They are certainly the model for low-income teams, but my entire point really was that the Orioles should not have to be a low-income team. MASN was supposed to guarantee that yet we've seen nothing to suggest it has helped the Orioles spend money on players. You are absolutely right that we re-signed two players that basically have under performed their contracts (Roberts majorly and Markakis to some extent) and that has hurt a bit, but I just can't understand how a team like the Tigers can afford big contracts but he Orioles have been able to convince a good bit of their fan base that they can't afford that. I just don't buy it.

My point is that the Rays have been smarter about whom they have extended then the O's. I don't think Garza was worth the cost for the Rays and we will see about Shields.

I would also say that the Roberts contract has hurt a lot more then "a bit".

As for the Tigers, they have an owner who has a much higher desire to win. If there is a team in Baseball actually losing money, my guess would be the Tigers.

[Can_of_corn]

Wieters, Machado, Bundy, Gausman, Tillman, Britton.

Tony is specifically talking about players with long term deals not players under team control. The Rays list of good players under team control is a lot more impressive then just Longo and Moore.

[Brendan25]

My point is that the Rays have been smarter about whom they have extended then the O's. I don't think Garza was worth the cost for the Rays and we will see about Shields.

I would also say that the Roberts contract has hurt a lot more then "a bit".

As for the Tigers, they have an owner who has a much higher desire to win. If there is a team in Baseball actually losing money, my guess would be the Tigers.

They have had more special cases. They haven't been as smart as you are given them credit for. I'm not saying the Rays aren't smart. They are. But they have really had some special cases for these contracts.

[Brendan25]

Tony is specifically talking about players with long term deals not players under team control. The Rays list of good players under team control is a lot more impressive then just Longo and Moore.

Again, who on the Orioles should we have a long term deal with by now?

[Can_of_corn]

Again, who on the Orioles should we have a long term deal with by now?

Machado, Wieters. I have to admit I would have approached Matusz after his strong finish in 2010. (LTD for Wieters doesn't extend past the age of 30)

[clapdiddy]

Machado, Wieters. I have to admit I would have approached Matusz after his strong finish in 2010. (LTD for Wieters doesn't extend past the age of 30)

I agree with this. I would offer Wieters 5 years right now and try to lock up Machado to a Longoria-esque deal (before the extension).

[Brendan25]

Machado, Wieters. I have to admit I would have approached Matusz after his strong finish in 2010. (LTD for Wieters doesn't extend past the age of 30)

Those are the only two I'd be able to think of also. And I think that even you can say that although they could get one, I'm sure you understand why the O's are being a little cautious before giving one. For all we know, they have talked to Wieters and he wants to wait.

[Stotle]

They have had more special cases. They haven't been as smart as you are given them credit for. I'm not saying the Rays aren't smart. They are. But they have really had some special cases for these contracts.

Uh what? If by "special cases" you mean they have players that have bought into the organization and Tampa has been willing to give these players guaranteed money money earlier in exchange for smaller contracts, then maybe? But there is nothing I can think of that Tampa has done that any other team could not have done. If Baltimore had offered Wieters the Longo contract two weeks after getting called up he would have signed it. So would have Machado.

What Tampa does is fantastic and impressive. Shame on you, sir...

[Stotle]

Those are the only two I'd be able to think of also. And I think that even you can say that although they could get one, I'm sure you understand why the O's are being a little cautious before giving one. For all we know, they have talked to Wieters and he wants to wait.

This is silly. Sorry. You can't applaud the O's for being cautious and act like Tampa has some special reason why extending Longoria two weeks into his MLB career was a special case. Tampa scouts their own players incredibly well, and has done a very good job of determining the right players to invest in. Baltimore could have easily given Wieters the Longo contract right after calling him up. Ditto Machado. If Tampa had waited three years to offer Longo a deal, it sure would have been a lot harder (and at least a lot more expensive) to sign him...

[Can_of_corn]

Those are the only two I'd be able to think of also. And I think that even you can say that although they could get one, I'm sure you understand why the O's are being a little cautious before giving one. For all we know, they have talked to Wieters and he wants to wait.

I also would have pulled the trigger on Jones a year earlier then the O's did.

[Frobby]

They also had to trade guys like Garza and Shields because they weren't able to afford them. Look, the Rays are very good at what they do. They are certainly the model for low-income teams, but my entire point really was that the Orioles should not have to be a low-income team. MASN was supposed to guarantee that yet we've seen nothing to suggest it has helped the Orioles spend money on players. You are absolutely right that we re-signed two players that basically have under performed their contracts (Roberts majorly and Markakis to some extent) and that has hurt a bit, but I just can't understand how a team like the Tigers can afford big contracts but he Orioles have been able to convince a good bit of their fan base that they can't afford that. I just don't buy it.

One of these years I'll retire and spend a year truly learning everything I can about the comparative economics of all 30 franchises. Until I have the time to do that, this kind of stuff will have to do:

Forbes says the Tigers had $217 mm in revenue in 2011, while the Orioles had $179 mm. That is why the Tigers can afford a higher payroll than the Orioles. Now, that ignores MASN, and I have no idea how accurate Forbes' numbers really are.

I've read contrasting things about the Tigers' TV situation. Forbes had reported that in 2008, the Tigers signed a 10-year deal with FOX at $40 mm a year (which is significantly more than the O's have been getting from MASN) and that they had the right to opt out of that deal after 5 years. In October, Forbes speculated that the Tigers were going to see an increase to $60 mm or more. FOX responded to that story saying it was "completely inaccurate" and that FOX was "in the middle of a long-term deal with the Tigers." Elsewhere, I've seen it reported that the Tigers' deal is for $50 mm/yr. But, nobody seems to really have the details.

The Orioles were 23rd in gross revenue in 2012, according to Forbes. Again, that doesn't include MASN, nor do the numbers for the other 29 teams take into account whether those teams or their owners own any part of the networks that broadcast their teams' games and what the revenues of those networks are.

I think we almost all believe that, one way or another, Angelos could pump more money into the Orioles from MASN if he chose. None of us know the details. We probably never will.