Jump to content

Adam Jones voted 2d best defensive outfielder in the AL by AL Managers


wildcard

Recommended Posts

Yes, and we know that Buck was right that Hardy was the best number 2 hitter all last year, Taylor Tegarden is a fine backup catcher who would be starting for many teams if not for his injury issues and Brian Roberts doesn't need a late inning defensive replacement.

How can anyone not understand that Buck is an openly and brutally honest evaluator of talent regardless of his personal relationships with his players. Pretty unfathomable really.

And who would you have hit 2nd instead of Hardy? Buck has said that Hardy's OBP did not make him a ideal candidate but he was the best he had at the time. Buck values Teagarden's game calling and defense which are pretty good traits for a backup catcher to a horse like Wieters. How many games have the O's lost because of Roberts late inning defense? I can't recall any but that doesn't mean it didn't happen.

As far as evaluating talent, Buck said he watched a lot of film on Bud Norris before they traded for him. I doubt the O's would have traded for him if Buck was against the trade. Buck is one of the main decision makers on the O's. Nobody is right all the time but the O's are a better team with him than they were before he arrived.

If you are going to pick at Buck for his evaluation skills and decision making, I think you picked a losing battle.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

  • Replies 108
  • Created
  • Last Reply
The ole "eye test". :)

But, I do agree with you on what you said.

There has been some talk of a professional scouting rating "system" on the horizon. In that case it'd be much more than the old eye test I think and I'd be very interested to see how it matches up to some of the metrics.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

And who would you have hit 2nd instead of Hardy? Buck has said that Hardy's OBP did not make him a ideal candidate but he was the best he had at the time. Buck values Teagarden's game calling and defense which are pretty good traits for a backup catcher to a horse like Wieters. How many games have the O's lost because of Roberts late inning defense? I can't recall any but that doesn't mean it didn't happen.

Hardy would have been fine batting second against LHP, Betemit would have been a good choice against RHP, but you can practically pick any other starter on the team quite frankly.

I don't care how good Buck thinks TT's game calling is, it's ridiculous for him to state that he thinks he could be a starter on another team and it's ridiculous not to pull Roberts for a late inning defensive replacement (whether it's cost us or not).

Link to comment
Share on other sites

If you are going to pick at Buck for his evaluation skills and decision making, I think you picked a losing battle.

And you're not going to win many battles if you keep going to the "Buck is a good manager so he must be right" card. Especially when the moves he makes don't make a lot of objective sense and the outsider's consensus is that he's smart enough to know that's not the best solution performance-wise so he must be doing this for political, clubhouse-type reasons.

Buck is a very good manager, but even the best have weaknesses and blind spots and areas where they choose to do non-optimal things for alterior motives like keeping the team bought into his vision. It's silly to think we're not going to point those out and ask why.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

And you're not going to win many battles if you keep going to the "Buck is a good manager so he must be right" card. Especially when the moves he makes don't make a lot of objective sense and the outsider's consensus is that he's smart enough to know that's not the best solution performance-wise so he must be doing this for political, clubhouse-type reasons.

Buck is a very good manager, but even the best have weaknesses and blind spots and areas where they choose to do non-optimal things for alterior motives like keeping the team bought into his vision. It's silly to think we're not going to point those out and ask why.

Question. Does keeping the team bought in not count as a part of the optimal solution/decision?

Link to comment
Share on other sites

First, this is just a stupid survey to give sports writers some material and start some threads on fan pages. Roch suggests that Buck filled his out in front of Roch. Not sure how serious the managers take this. Second, did they present the votes or just the results? I wouldn't be surprised that winners at some of the positions (like Jones) got two or three votes and everyone else got one or two votes. There are several positions where the top players are slam dunks and there are positions, like "outfielder", where no manager, coach or fan might list the same three players much less list them in the same order. It's just meaningless drivel and shouldn't be interpreted as some serious evaluation of Jones or similar players.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Question. Does keeping the team bought in not count as a part of the optimal solution/decision?

Sure. But the defense here is rarely that Brian Roberts is not performing and needs a defensive replacement and Buck won't do it to keep the team happy. It's more along the lines of Buck knows how Roberts is performing better than you and I, we're probably wrong, so you shouldn't question things.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Adam Jones is the best player on the O's. I never understood the negativity towards him. Why can't you just be happy for the guy to be seen of as a good player by other managers?

Why don't you try and focus on the topic instead of throwing out meaningless rhetoric. Nobody hates Jones and the overwhelming majority are glad to have him.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Adam Jones is the best player on the O's. I never understood the negativity towards him. Why can't you just be happy for the guy to be seen of as a good player by other managers?

Why can't we be very happy to have him while also pointing out that it's borderline ludicrous to suggest he's the best defensive center fielder in the game?

I wouldn't be surprised that winners at some of the positions (like Jones) got two or three votes and everyone else got one or two votes.

That was one of the primary problems with the Gold Gloves. There was no list of eliglible candidates, no presentation of even basic metrics, just a question "who's the best at each position?" So a manager would kind of take a minute to free-associate all of his memories of fielders and write down whoever came to mind. And the result in many cases had to be nine or ten guys getting votes and someone winning with like 19% of the total. Exposure and name recognition certainly drove many of the winning totals.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

And you're not going to win many battles if you keep going to the "Buck is a good manager so he must be right" card. Especially when the moves he makes don't make a lot of objective sense and the outsider's consensus is that he's smart enough to know that's not the best solution performance-wise so he must be doing this for political, clubhouse-type reasons.

Buck is a very good manager, but even the best have weaknesses and blind spots and areas where they choose to do non-optimal things for alterior motives like keeping the team bought into his vision. It's silly to think we're not going to point those out and ask why.

Its one thing to question and ask why and another to question Buck's evaluation and decision making skills. Buck knows who is hurting, we don't. Buck knows who needs a rest, we don't. Is Buck right all the time? No. He is human and he makes mistakes but to make an issue that he does not have good evaluation or decision making skills is not a smart argument.

Buck changed the culture of the O's. The O's won 93 games last year because of decisions of players and situations that Buck made. The O's are in the playoff race now because of Buck after 14 years of losing. Questioning Buck ability to manage and develop an organization is a losing battle if anyone just stops and thinks for half a second about what he has done of the O's instead of focusing on a single event.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

On all these defensive surveys, I think offense plays a part. Who comes to mind when you think of outfielders? Guys like Adam Jones, not all-glove guys unless they've really made a name for themselves with the leather. So, I think Jones is a rather well-known name, and I think he is a good CF and defensive player, and these factors help him score high in these votes.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Its one thing to question and ask why and another to question Buck's evaluation and decision making skills. Buck knows who is hurting, we don't. Buck knows who needs a rest, we don't. Is Buck right all the time? No. He is human and he makes mistakes but to make an issue that he does not have good evaluation or decision making skills is not a smart argument.

Buck changed the culture of the O's. The O's won 93 games last year because of decisions of players and situations that Buck made. The O's are in the playoff race now because of Buck after 14 years of losing. Questioning Buck ability to manage and develop an organization is a losing battle if anyone just stops and thinks for half a second about what he has done of the O's instead of focusing on a single event.

Yes, Buck is smart and good and changed the culture so we need to just accept stuff and keep our mouths shut.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

On all these defensive surveys, I think offense plays a part. Who comes to mind when you think of outfielders? Guys like Adam Jones, not all glove guys unless they've really made a name for themselves with the leather. So, I think Jones is a rather well-known name, and I think he is a good CF and defensive player, and these factors help him score high in these votes.

Yes, in an open plurality voting system where 15% or 20% could be the winning percentage the name recognition that comes with hitting well is probably what puts a lot of people over the top.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

I think that AJ having the stones to play so shallow takes options away from hitters and managers before they even swing the bat, that adds to his value as a defender, and may well mess up his stats, but I dunno.

I love Adam Jones, he is a beast of a baller. And by signing his long term contract when he certainly would have had lots of other options, he showed that he believes in the Baltimore Orioles, the past be damned, so I'm gonna believe in him!

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Archived

This topic is now archived and is closed to further replies.




  • Posts

    • Cool, nice work there.   So? Are we owed a large market? Does DC not deserve their own team? Should the fans of Baltimore just become Redskins fans and not tried to get their own team when the Colts left?  (sorry to bring up football again but come on, that fits). I laid it all out a couple months ago, MLB has more teams bringing home the hunk of metal than other sports since 2000.  The competitive balance is fine.  It's harder?  Yea?  OK it's harder.
    • The Cowboys have an owner with deep pockets. I agree 100% … There is some cap manipulation that happens. At the end of the day they have a $255 million limit they are required to operate under. The Dodgers, Yankees, Red Sox, etc can decide each year how much they want to add to the luxury tax fund as opposed to not being able to fit a potential move under the cap. Here are the 2024 payrolls for the NFL and MLB   https://www.usatoday.com/story/sports/mlb/2024/04/03/mlb-team-payrolls-2024-highest-lowest-mets/73139425007/ Highest $305 million vs $60 million  https://www.spotrac.com/nfl/cap/_/year/2024/sort/cap_maximum_space Highest $259.5 million vs $217 million these numbers will likely get tighter once they make additions before the trade deadline.  If you can’t see the difference I’m just wasting my time. The biggest driving force in MLB beyond the ability of some to spend lavishly is the tv markets. The club controls so much of their tv revenue that it’s an unfair game. The moved that created the Orioles didn’t have much of an effect on the Senators tv market which was likely nonexistent then. Plus MLB is allowing contract manipulation like Othani’s contract. Instead of $700 divided by length 10 years, Somehow he only counts as like $46 million which is laughable. Plus they are paying $85 million in luxury tax fees in 2024.    The Orioles were a large market team when the Expos moved to DC. They could afford to spend with the Yankees, Red Sox , and Blue Jays. Could the Orioles afford to pay $85 million in luxury tax fees? Could the Yankees? I know the answer to both.  What grounds ? Who cares ? The impact was astronomical …It made it very difficult to compete in the AL East without tank a thon! It split their tv market in half. Obviously MLB papered over that long enough to get an agreement done.    They turned a large market team into 2 small/mid market teams. The Orioles and Nationals payrolls combined place them only 11th in baseball. Obviously they could afford to spend more. But it’s doubtful either will ever be top 10 for more than a season  or two as they try to hang onto a window.     
    • Thanks for the detailed explanation of all of the issues.  Sounds like a mess.
    • Yeah the amenities are pretty outdated at the yard and they seem to do nothing year over year to improve them. The touchscreens have been banged on to death to the point they barely function, so you can't accurately fill out your order at the kiosks, and they don't have a way for the people behind the counter to ring you up at many of the food places. The sound is low to non-existent in certain sections of the club level, like around 218. Seems like there should be speakers that reach there but they might have been damaged by rain, etc. and they are too lazy to fix them. If you go to a game that's even slightly busy, you will wait forever to get into the bathroom, and the sink will be an absolute mess with no soap or paper towels. It's even worse on the club level where they have one sink that's right by the door. Nearby businesses don't care, either. The Hilton parking garage reeks of decay, pot and human waste. They don't turn on the air circulation fans, even if cars are waiting for an hour and a half to exit from P3, filling up the air with carbon monoxide. They only let you enter the stadium with one 20 oz bottle of water. It's so expensive to buy a drink or water in the stadium, but with all the salty food, 20 oz of water isn't enough, especially on a hot day. Vegetarian food options are poor to none, other than things like chips, fries, hot pretzels and the occasional pizza. Vida Taco is better, but at an inconvenient location for many seats. The doors on the club level are not accessible. They're anti-accessible. Big, heavy doors you have to go through to get to/from the escalators, and big, heavy doors to get to your seats, none of them automatic (or even with the option to be automatic with a button press). Makes it hard to carry food out to your seats even if not handicapped. The furniture in the lounges on the club level seem designed to allow as few people as possible to sit down. Not great when we have so many rain delays during the season. Should put more, smaller chairs in and allow more of the club level ticket holders to have a seat while waiting for thunderstorms to pass. They keep a lot of the entrance/exit gates closed except for playoff/sellout games, which means people have to slowly "mooooo" all the way down Eutaw St to get to parking. They are too cheap to staff all the gates, so they make people exit by the warehouse, even though it would be a lot more convenient for many fans to open all the gates. Taking Light Rail would be super convenient, except that if there's at least 20k fans in attendance, it's common to have to wait 90-120 minutes to be able to board a non-full train heading toward Glen Burnie. A few trains might come by, but they are already full, or fill up fast when folks walk up to the Convention Center stop to pre-empt the folks trying to board at Camden Station. None of the garages in the area are set up to require pre-payment on entry (reservation, or give them your card / digital payment at the entrance till). If they were, emptying out the garage would be very quick, as they wouldn't need to ticket anyone on the way out: if you can't get in without paying, you can always just leave without having to stop and scan your phone or put a ticket in the machine. They shut down the Sports Legends Museum at Camden Station in 2015 because the Maryland Stadium Authority was too greedy. That place was a fun distraction if you were in the area when a game wasn't about to start, like if you show up super early on Opening Day or a playoff day. Superbook's restaurant on Eutaw is a huge downgrade from Dempsey's in terms of menu and service quality. Dempsey's used to be well-staffed, you could reserve a table online, and they had all kinds of great selection for every diet. Superbook seems like just another bar serving the same swill that the rest of the park serves, with extremely minimal and low-quality food. For that matter, most of the food at the stadium is very low quality these days. A lot of things we used to love are made to a lower standard now if they are served at all. These are gripes about the stadium and the area that haven't changed my entire adult life. Going to an O's game requires one to tolerate many small inconveniences and several major inconveniences, any number of which could easily be fixed by the relevant authorities if they gave a damn about the people who pay to come see the team play. You would think a mid-market team would be able to afford to invest in the fan experience. You would think the city and partnering organizations like garages, the Stadium Authority and MTA would at least try to do their part to make the experience enjoyable and free of kinks. You would think they would put some thought into handling the "growing pains" of the fanbase due to recent renewed interest after the dark years. Instead, all we get is the same indifference and the same annoyances year in and year out. The whole area is overdue for a revamp. Not sure if $600 mil will get it done, but at least it's a start. Hopefully they can start to patch up some of the many holes in the fan experience. If you're not going to invest in Burnes, at least make it so paying customers have an easier, more enjoyable time getting to/from the stadium and having some food while we're there.
    • Elias has only been in rebuild mode with the O's so there's not much to speculate on there.  Houston, where he spent his formative years, doesn't seem to like to be on the hook for more than a couple of big long-term contracts at any given time.  I can see that as being Elias' choice as well, albeit with a lower overall cost - Houston runs a big payroll.  But it's all guesswork.  I really don't know. If Elias takes the 2025 payroll to $150 million it will creep up to $200 million or so by 2028 just from keeping the core together.  That's where I start to wonder about sustainability due to market size, economic forces, etc., etc., etc... If it were up to me, I would add a couple of free agents this offseason even if the contracts were longer than ideal and be conservative about extensions elsewhere until the prospects establish themselves a little better.  I think there's a competitive opportunity that the team is already into that's worth exploiting. I think ownership is very happy to have Elias on board and they're not inclined to force him to do anything.  I also think Rubenstein's demonstrated business prowess is great enough to assume that he has had plenty enough time to come to a mutual understanding with Elias as to goals.
    • We need a RH O’hearn…in addition to Westburg. At least 3 batters that will push up the pitch count and cause damage in the top 5 of the lineup.
  • Popular Contributors

×
×
  • Create New...