Cal Ripken's Legacy

[CA-ORIOLE]

You said to me, "Strawman argument aside, you're going on record as saying the talent pool from 1954? is every bit as good as it is today."Since you misinterpreted my post, I clarified it.

Yeah, that was clearly meant to be sarcastic. I can only work with what is given.

[tntoriole]

Since I didn't make that argument, I'm not sure of the reason you need to address it with me.

If you're using statistics, you can certainly use that as a starting point for your argument. Sincefielding statistics are relative to the existing talent pool, it's a reasonable assumption that the bar is higher for the player evaluated against the higher talent pool. That doesn't even get into the issues of Beltre being under the scrutiny of more detailed evaluation methods (UZR/DRS) than Brooks was. Not to mention its been shown that Total Zone favors sure handedness and gives guys like Brooks and Cal some statistical advantage.

Other than agreeing the Brooks was probably the greater defender relative to his era, I haven't made an opinion one way or the other on this. Beltre (outside the past 2 years) has been the greatest defensive third baseman of his era. It's totally reasonable for me to believe the Beltre is the best defensive third baseman that Cal (or a lot of people) have seen at the point he made his comment.

Totally subjective admittedly on my part, but in the hundreds of games I personally saw Brooks play he would make that swinging bunt, one hand, all in one motion throw out EVERY SINGLE TIME. Since then, IF a third baseman makes that play, it goes on Sports Center and everybody ooohs and aahs, but the media and video coverage of Brooks wasn't the same. He would be on Sports Center EVERY night. In fact, they would have to just give him his own highlight segment. When Beltre makes a play, every body in and out of the game sees it multiple times right away.

[TonySoprano]

But some Ripken strengths could be managerial weaknesses. How do you say, “Skip, I could use a day off.” Johnson had the common touch and kept a relaxed tone. When the O’s were bad, Ripken sometimes withdrew into his own performance. A manager lays claim to every defeat. Can Cal?

Cal’s not the easy-to-grasp guy some think he is. In private he’s blunt, sardonic and opinionated about the reality of baseball politics. Unless the Nats are confident they know him to his depths, not just his image, they should be careful. He’s a huge baseball personage and a hard man to cross.

source - Tom Boswell, Washington Post

[mdbdotcom]

Yeah, that was clearly meant to be sarcastic. I can only work with what is given.

I hope you get better at it.

[CA-ORIOLE]

Totally subjective admittedly on my part, but in the hundreds of games I personally saw Brooks play he would make that swinging bunt, one hand, all in one motion throw out EVERY SINGLE TIME. Since then, IF a third baseman makes that play, it goes on Sports Center and everybody ooohs and aahs, but the media and video coverage of Brooks wasn't the same. He would be on Sports Center EVERY night. In fact, they would have to just give him his own highlight segment. When Beltre makes a play, every body in and out of the game sees it multiple times right away.

Glad you posted this actually. Totally subjective myself. Brooks was an artist. When you saw him play, you naturally oohed an aahed. Beltre plays third base pretty ugly. Like an animal in some ways. He's not pretty to watch, but it's pretty damn amazing, particularly the way he can make throws (hard freaking throws from various positions). In fact I've heard a few people comment that he's a textbook example of how not to play third base. I think this is why some people can't consider the possibility that Beltre could be that good. Now, Beltre can make all the plays but I've never seen an arm like that at third base. Never. Even Machado, as good as his arm is wasn't as good as Beltre's was imo.

[CA-ORIOLE]

I hope you get better at it.

It's not for everybody.

[DrungoHazewood]

The talent pool is not population. It is baseball players.

I don't necessarily disagree, that is one potential factor. I think there's a good argument to be made that one of the primary factors driving talent pool is demand. That certainly explains the DR. It explains why Puerto Rico was a much bigger source of talent prior to being under the draft umbrella. And with 30 MLB teams and $8B+ in annual revenues baseball has as much or more demand for top-level talent as ever.

[DrungoHazewood]

Totally subjective admittedly on my part, but in the hundreds of games I personally saw Brooks play he would make that swinging bunt, one hand, all in one motion throw out EVERY SINGLE TIME. Since then, IF a third baseman makes that play, it goes on Sports Center and everybody ooohs and aahs, but the media and video coverage of Brooks wasn't the same. He would be on Sports Center EVERY night. In fact, they would have to just give him his own highlight segment. When Beltre makes a play, every body in and out of the game sees it multiple times right away.

That speaks to exposure, not how many runs they saved.

[tntoriole]

Glad you posted this actually. Totally subjective myself. Brooks was an artist. When you saw him play, you naturally oohed an aahed. Beltre plays third base pretty ugly. Like an animal in some ways. He's not pretty to watch, but it's pretty damn amazing, particularly the way he can make throws (hard freaking throws from various positions). In fact I've heard a few people comment that he's a textbook example of how not to play third base. I think this is why some people can't consider the possibility that Beltre could be that good. Now, Beltre can make all the plays but I've never seen an arm like that at third base. Never. Even Machado, as good as his arm is wasn't as good as Beltre's was imo.

Good post. Beltre has a great arm. So did Ron Santo. So did Scott Rolen. Brooks had a strong arm, but where he was unmatched was how quickly he transferred the ball and threw and the accuracy and catchability of his throws.

[waroriole]

"There’s one difference with Cal. He is rated the fourth-best defensive player in history by defensive WAR. He once made three errors in a full season at SS and had astronomical assist numbers (range). So, even when he was in a slump he had more value to his team, because of his glove, than players like Rose. So there was even less reason — NO reason — for him to take a day off."

This. I hate the arguments against the streak. They're mostly bogus, and generally reserved for the likes of Rosenthal.

[waroriole]

source - Tom Boswell, Washington Post

This is a good point. They need to know how well Cal can and will relate to his players. Good example of asking for a day off, if needed. How well can Cal relate to his guys that they aren't measured against him in that regard.

I think his knowledge of the game is going to be at the top of all managers, but his guys need to be able to come to him.

[weams]

This is a good point. They need to know how well Cal can and will relate to his players. Good example of asking for a day off, if needed. How well can Cal relate to his guys that they aren't measured against him in that regard.

I think his knowledge of the game is going to be at the top of all managers, but his guys need to be able to come to him.

I think Cal would be a lot like Frank as a manager. I really am surprised that Cal would want to be hired help at this point.

[mdbdotcom]

Good post. Beltre has a great arm. So did Ron Santo. So did Scott Rolen. Brooks had a strong arm, but where he was unmatched was how quickly he transferred the ball and threw and the accuracy and catchability of his throws.

Brooks suffered an arm (shoulder?) injury in the minors, and never had a real strong arm after that. He compensated by playing shallow. His reflexes allowed him to do that.

[waroriole]

I think Cal would be a lot like Frank as a manager. I really am surprised that Cal would want to be hired help at this point.

I agree, and I'm not sure if it's worth taking a chance on it for a team like the Nats. They're built to win now, and if I were the GM, I'd feel a lot more comfortable with an established manager.

Cal seems to fit better in the Larry Bird, Nolan Ryan situation, where he's running a team.

Of course, we haven't seen anything but wild speculation that he's interested in the job.

[CA-ORIOLE]

I think Cal would be a lot like Frank as a manager. I really am surprised that Cal would want to be hired help at this point.

Yeah, I don't get it. I don't see it working either.