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Mussina is significantly better than Glavine


Luper2207

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This.

It's a Hall of Fame, and because his career is more memorable, he's a first ballot Hall of Famer.

Mussina has HoF credentials, however, he's just not as memorable as Glavine.

Ugly girlfriend logic.

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This is a good point. After all, sportswriters are human biengs as well. They are going to have a tendency to vote for guys that treated them well rather than some one who treated them with distain. Especially if they have multiple choices like they did this year.

People vote for people they like. They do it in politics, they do it in jury trials. That's why jury selection consultation is such a lucrative field. Put the right people on the jury, and the trial is over before it starts.

Mussina will get in soon enough, as soon as their are fewer candidates in the pool.

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I politely disagree. Mussina never dominated the league as Palmer did for a three or four year period. While I think overall you can make an argument that their numbers where similar I believe Palmer was the better competitor. To steal a question asked earlier. I'd take Palmer over Mussina in a game 7 every time period! Secondly' date=' if he eventually goes in the HOF as an Oriole I think he should and will without a doubt have a stature. As I said earlier...I think this is a theoretical argument because if he goes into the HOF it want be as an Oriole.[/quote']

Palmer in his prime was probably better than Mussina in his prime. From age 32 to the end of his career Palmer won 53 games and had an ERA+ of 106. Mussina won 106 games and had an ERA+ of 111. So when you look at production over their entire careers, you can argue Mussina was as good or better, but Palmer was better at his peak.

I don't think Mussina will ever have a statue at OPACY, no matter what. And just so it's clear, he was my favorite player on the team during his tenure here, even over Cal, Palmeiro and others.

But statues should be very rare. There are 17 players and 3 managers who went into the Hall of Fame as a Yankee. How many of them had monuments in CF? Five.

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Few modern athletes of his caliber have done less to endear themselves to their teammates or the community in which they played. While that is not as significant as how great a player he was, I think it is important. If entry to the HOF is going to be based just on numbers, they might as well set up benchmarks and forget the voting. The fact that there is a human element involved means that a player's popularity with fans and media counts -- that is a big part of fame, after all.

Very fair comment. Time sometimes changes things. Eddie Murray became very bitter towards the fans and the press and pretty much forced the Orioles to trade him away, yet years later the fans welcomed him back, things were patched up and now he is as beloved as if he had played his whole career in Baltimore. I don't think Mussina will ever get quite the same treatment, though. He chose to go to NY for the money and a better chance for a ring, and though I don't blame him, that cost him his chance at a statue.

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Very fair comment. Time sometimes changes things. Eddie Murray became very bitter towards the fans and the press and pretty much forced the Orioles to trade him away, yet years later the fans welcomed him back, things were patched up and now he is as beloved as if he had played his whole career in Baltimore. I don't think Mussina will ever get quite the same treatment, though. He chose to go to NY for the money and a better chance for a ring, and though I don't blame him, that cost him his chance at a statue.

I just think that it would be petty and unlikely that if (big if) he goes into the HOF and as an Oriole that he wouldn't be treated exactly the same as the other Orioles in the HOF. Its clear and unmistakable that the O's have established that all Orioles members of the HOF will have their number retired and a statue in the park. I just can't see them not doing it. They wouldn't like it but, I just can't see them not doing it.

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I agree, Frobby. Mussina was a GREAT pitcher, and, in my opinion, should be a HOFer.

While I think Mussina was a great pitcher, he's not HOF caliber in my opinion.

One of my main points is that he barely led the league in any pitching categories during his entire career.

The times & categories he led the league in are:

- W/L% in '92

- Wins, shutouts, & Walks/9IP in '95

- Starts in '96

- Innings pitches in '00

- Starts in '08

Doesn?t sound like league leading stats of a HOF?er?

Let us move onto awards & honors that Moose earned:

- 5 All Star Games

- Highest MVP voting was 19th

- Highest Cy Young voting was 2nd place one time (he never finished higher than 4th any other year)

- 7 GG's

Still doesn't sound like HOF material...

To make the HOF, you need to be the best of the best for the years (at least 10) that you play, can you honestly say that Mussina was "the best of the best"? I surely can't, not when during the same era you had guys like Glavine, Smoltz, Maddox, R. Johnson, Pedro, Clemens (but that's another discussion of its own), etc.

It?s not Mussina?s fault that there were quite a few dominant pitchers in his era, but if Mussina can't even be considered the best of his era of pitchers, then how can be considered a Hall of Famer? If there were a Hall of Very Good, Mussina would be a shoe in, but for the HOF the standards are a bit higher?

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I just think that it would be petty and unlikely that if (big if) he goes into the HOF and as an Oriole that he wouldn't be treated exactly the same as the other Orioles in the HOF. Its clear and unmistakable that the O's have established that all Orioles members of the HOF will have their number retired and a statue in the park. I just can't see them not doing it. They wouldn't like it but' date=' I just can't see them not doing it.[/quote']

Which hat is on his plaque will be up to the HOF, not Mussina. He started 288 regular season games for the O's and 249 for the Skanks. He started six playoff games for the O's and 21 for the Yankees, plus two relief appearances in Yankees playoff games. Three of his Yankee starts were World Series. Given the weight of his playoff experience, I would expect him to go in as a Yankee.

But even if he goes in as an Oriole, his contributions to the O's pale in comparison with any of the other former O's with statues. As far as I know, his uniform number has not been retired by the O's, and I doubt it ever will be. He's in the O's Hall of Fame. I don't see him receiving any more honor than that from the O's.

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Since I am an lifelong Orioles fan who has lived many years in Atlanta (and pull for the Braves on the NL side), I have a pretty good perspective on both Mussina and Glavine. Somebody brought up memorability earlier and beyond the 300 win plateau and even the Cy Young counts, that to me is what really hurts Mussina relative to Glavine....that and Armando Benitez. The last game of the year in 1996, Benitez blows the save in Toronto that would have given Mussina 20 wins (although Moose's ERA that year was pretty bad). In the 1997 Playoffs, Mussina was untouchable...not only should we have gone to the World Series and won it, but Mussina would have had a chance to do exactly what Glavine did in 1995 when he completely shut down the Indians in the Game 6 clincher. That never happened though, because of Armando Benitez. Frank Thomas should in his acceptance speech thank the Orioles and specifically Mike Mussina because he destroyed us....and Moose in particular.

I also think memorability has played some role in the HOF cases for Palmeiro and Biggio. I know roids with Palmeiro was THE issue, and perhaps a little bit with Biggio, but the problem with both of these men is that I cannot remember a single huge postseason moment for either of them. Biggio was pretty awful in his many postseason appearances and Palmeiro wasn't much better. Obviously you can't get in on postseason success alone or Schilling would have waltzed in....but it sure does help.

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I just think that it would be petty and unlikely that if (big if) he goes into the HOF and as an Oriole that he wouldn't be treated exactly the same as the other Orioles in the HOF. Its clear and unmistakable that the O's have established that all Orioles members of the HOF will have their number retired and a statue in the park. I just can't see them not doing it. They wouldn't like it but' date=' I just can't see them not doing it.[/quote']

I wouldn't say the Orioles have established that every Oriole HOF gets a statue. The 6 current statues were all unveiled in the same year (2012) as sort of a 20-year anniversary of OPACY. I consider that a special circumstance. It doesn't mean the O's will continue building statues for every O's Hall of Famer going forward.

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I think this is a fun topic/debate. Both pitchers were really good. I was and am a Mussina fan. I wasn't bitter when he left (I think that was a given after he accepted a below market contract a few years earlier than the O's and then the O's went downhill and cut their spending). I even kind of liked that he was a jerk. He never pretended to be anything but who he was and it was clear that pitching well and winning games is what mattered to him. He also fit into that team (Cal and a lot of those guys were not rah rah and seemed to just do their things). So I like Mussina, I would have voted for him, and I think he will eventually get in. But I think it is definitely appropriate that Glavine got in this year over Mussina. You can argue the details, but in the broad spectrum of things I think Glavine had a much bigger impact on his team and on baseball. He was amazing to watch and incredibly frustrating to face. I had zero confidence when the O's or another team I wanted to win faced Glavine. He could really stick a fork in a team. I definitely think I would rather have Glavine pitch a big game than Mussina (although Mussina was darn good for the O's in big games). Anyway, this is a fun topic and I enjoyed reading everyone's opinion. Thoughtful stuff. But to me Glavine is more deserving than Mussina. Glavine amazed on a fairly regular basis. Mussina amazed every so often. I could never understand how Glavine did it. How Mussina did it was obviously. They were just so different and Glavine was just more bewildering good to me.

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While I think Mussina was a great pitcher, he's not HOF caliber in my opinion.

One of my main points is that he barely led the league in any pitching categories during his entire career.

The times & categories he led the league in are:

- W/L% in '92

- Wins, shutouts, & Walks/9IP in '95

- Starts in '96

- Innings pitches in '00

- Starts in '08

Doesn?t sound like league leading stats of a HOF?er?

Let us move onto awards & honors that Moose earned:

- 5 All Star Games

- Highest MVP voting was 19th

- Highest Cy Young voting was 2nd place one time (he never finished higher than 4th any other year)

- 7 GG's

Still doesn't sound like HOF material...

To make the HOF, you need to be the best of the best for the years (at least 10) that you play, can you honestly say that Mussina was "the best of the best"? I surely can't, not when during the same era you had guys like Glavine, Smoltz, Maddox, R. Johnson, Pedro, Clemens (but that's another discussion of its own), etc.

It?s not Mussina?s fault that there were quite a few dominant pitchers in his era, but if Mussina can't even be considered the best of his era of pitchers, then how can be considered a Hall of Famer? If there were a Hall of Very Good, Mussina would be a shoe in, but for the HOF the standards are a bit higher?

Mussina, except for maybe one or two years, was always, to me, in the second tier of really good pitchers in the American League. I'm not sure that means he doesn't deserve to be in the hall though. There are certainly MANY pitchers in the hall that were not among the very best of the best.

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While I think Mussina was a great pitcher, he's not HOF caliber in my opinion.

One of my main points is that he barely led the league in any pitching categories during his entire career.

The times & categories he led the league in are:

- W/L% in '92

- Wins, shutouts, & Walks/9IP in '95

- Starts in '96

- Innings pitches in '00

- Starts in '08

Doesn?t sound like league leading stats of a HOF?er?

Let us move onto awards & honors that Moose earned:

- 5 All Star Games

- Highest MVP voting was 19th

- Highest Cy Young voting was 2nd place one time (he never finished higher than 4th any other year)

- 7 GG's

Still doesn't sound like HOF material...

To make the HOF, you need to be the best of the best for the years (at least 10) that you play, can you honestly say that Mussina was "the best of the best"? I surely can't, not when during the same era you had guys like Glavine, Smoltz, Maddox, R. Johnson, Pedro, Clemens (but that's another discussion of its own), etc.

It?s not Mussina?s fault that there were quite a few dominant pitchers in his era, but if Mussina can't even be considered the best of his era of pitchers, then how can be considered a Hall of Famer? If there were a Hall of Very Good, Mussina would be a shoe in, but for the HOF the standards are a bit higher?

I think the point of this whole thread is that if Glavine is considered one of the best of the era, then Mussina should be too. Most of the statistical analysis supports that Mussina was actually better.

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