Lurking: Ryan Flaherty?

[AdamK]

I like him. Those defensive lapses from the other day really surprised me.

[Jonesy10]

I don't hate Schoop but he simply isn't ready to be an everyday MLB player and Flaherty is simply better. This isn't 2010. The Orioles are trying to win and Flaherty will give them a better chance to do so unless something drastic changes.

As Gordo pointed out above, Flaherty gets better as the season goes on. Give him a chance to see if he can do that as a starter. If he can't, he's not going to hit any worse than Schoop is and worst case scenario you can call Schoop back up.

Here's why I like Flash over Schoop. He put up a WAR of 1.4 last season with roughly half a seasons worth of PA's. He could easily put up 2-3 WAR given the starters role. I know he's not an uber prospect like Davis was, but maybe give him the same opportunity Davis got. Let him start every day and give him a chance to settle in. See if he can hit enough to stick everyday.

Flash walks more (besides Cruz, Davis, and Markakis he will walk most out of the regulars), strikes out less, is simply a better hitter at this point, better defensively (Schoop actually has been a tad better this year but has played a lot more and a Flash was great last year), and his batted ball data is miles better than Schoop's. Flaherty has a very solid LD% of 20.6 %. Out of all qualified batters according to fangraphs, Schoop is dead last in LD%. Dead last. That is not a good sign for anybody that has the slightest idea of Schoop turning it around and contributing this season. With a microscopic walk rate, inflated strikeout rate, minimal power, and horrid batted ball data, Schoop obviously isn't showing much and is lucky that his OPS isn't even lower with so much soft contact.

Again, I don't hate Schoop. If Schoop was to somehow turn it around then great, he stays. That would bs huge. But right now he's really, really bad and Flaherty is simply a better option going forward. It's not like Schoop was very good in the minors last year anyway. He was pretty mediocre. Let him play every single day down there and excel before he has the starting job here.

[CA-ORIOLE]

Can't wait for Ryan Flaherty bobblehead day.

[El Gordo]

Schoop is just keeping his head above water at the ML level with his bat. He is a decent defensive 2B, less range than Flaherty IMO, but as good with the DP. Flaherty is having better QAB, seeing more pitches and getting more BB's.

[Il BuonO]

Can't wait for Ryan Flaherty bobblehead day.

You know it's coming.

[Can_of_corn]

The Ryan Flaherty argument can basically be distilled into this: either you believe that a player simply cannot improve--not even in exceptional circumstances where he starts his minor league career very late and doesn't get his rookie chance until very late, despite performing well in the MiLs, and even then is not given a full chance--at the age of 27, or you believe that Ryan has shown some very nice tools, seems to have projection given his power and his relatively decent plate discipline, and can improve (or perhaps not even improve so much as allow us to see what his skills translate into over a substantial, continuous sample size) as he adds more than 534 ABs to his ML resume, and for once gets an extended chance.

The former stance is just far, far too inflexible and sterile for my liking. Statistics are very important, but they must be tempered with context and common sense. And as I've said to you, C_o_C (forgive me, but I might as well name the first stance after you, thus I'll address you), the age factor--that you put so much weight on and wield as a kind of weapon of mass destruction against any pro-Flaherty argument--is derived from correlative studies, thus it is hardly free from exceptions. Unless Drungo can come in here and tell me that in the history of baseball almost no one has improved decently (because mind, it wouldn't have to be a massive improvement: he had something like a .665 OPS coming into this season, in those first 450 PAs, which if you add .50 OPS points to, considering his defense, makes a quite decent 2B) over his first 450 PAs from age 25-26 to his 450 at age 27+.

Mind--and I say this with all the respect in the world, because the following are obviously two of the best posters here--Drungo and (I think) C_o_C were two of the people that were probably most pessimistic on Chris Davis in August of 2012, I remember this because your arguments struck me as quite convincing, and I came to believe during that time that Chris Davis was little more than a mediocre DH/1B, around replacement level, partly on the strength of your arguments. I say this to illustrate the point that sometimes a bit more context--a bit less rigidity--and a bit of common sense doesn't go amiss. Not always, but in the Flaherty case it strikes me, and always has struck me, as if it wouldn't.

On the topic of Davis, what I remember saying was something to the effect of, "He should be good enough to stay at first until he gets too expensive in his arbitration years.". I certainly don't recall ever suggesting that they try and pass him through waivers or anything of that nature.

Of course I don't see the point of comparing Davis and Flaherty at all. You mention the age issue then you want to compare flash with crush. Davis put up a 880 OPS in the majors at the age of 22.

Flaherty's resume isn't nearly as impressive.

Have stranger things happened in MLB then someone like Flaherty suddenly become a viable 2-3 win player? Sure, but it isn't likely.

[DrungoHazewood]

Have stranger things happened in MLB then someone like Flaherty suddenly become a viable 2-3 win player? Sure, but it isn't likely.

I made a list of everyone in MLB history who played 2B, SS, and 3B and had an OPS+ between 70-80 through age 27. Then looked at what they did from 28-on.

There's actually a HOFer in there - Red Schoendienst. A poor HOFer, a VC selection with a .724 OPS, but a HOFer. Also, Clete Boyer and Frank White. Of course all those guys had the advantage of being established MLB regulars by Flaherty's age. And there's a far more lengthy list of guys like Pep Goodwin and Zeke Wrigley.

[Jonesy10]

On the topic of Davis, what I remember saying was something to the effect of, "He should be good enough to stay at first until he gets too expensive in his arbitration years.". I certainly don't recall ever suggesting that they try and pass him through waivers or anything of that nature.

Of course I don't see the point of comparing Davis and Flaherty at all. You mention the age issue then you want to compare flash with crush. Davis put up a 880 OPS in the majors at the age of 22.

Flaherty's resume isn't nearly as impressive.

Have stranger things happened in MLB then someone like Flaherty suddenly become a viable 2-3 win player? Sure, but it isn't likely.

He put up a WAR of 1.4 last year in limited at bats. I think it's a real possibility he gets to that 2-3 WAR area as a starter.

[MrOrange82]

He put up a WAR of 1.4 last year in limited at bats. I think it's a real possibility he gets to that 2-3 WAR area as a starter.

And it's a more realistic possibility that the WAR figure you mention was boosted by an unsustainable defensive performance last season. Flaherty is adequate with the glove, but he's probably not the wizard that the defensive stats made him out to be last year.

[Flash- bd]

On the topic of Davis, what I remember saying was something to the effect of, "He should be good enough to stay at first until he gets too expensive in his arbitration years.". I certainly don't recall ever suggesting that they try and pass him through waivers or anything of that nature.

Of course I don't see the point of comparing Davis and Flaherty at all. You mention the age issue then you want to compare flash with crush. Davis put up a 880 OPS in the majors at the age of 22.

Flaherty's resume isn't nearly as impressive.

Have stranger things happened in MLB then someone like Flaherty suddenly become a viable 2-3 win player? Sure, but it isn't likely.

First off I apologize if I remembered incorrectly, I'm just remembering the gist, and also made sure to clarify that that was what I came to believe, myself, partly dissuaded by some of you and Drungo's arguments on the subject.

I'm not comparing Flaherty to Davis, though, I'm simply using Davis as a tangentially relevant example to illustrate my point. Anyways Jonesy in a few words probably does it better, Ryan racked up 1.4 WAR in half a season last season, without consistent ABs or continuity in the lineup. You of course can and will argue aberration/SSS, but it really isn't much of a stretch to suggest he could be a 3 WAR player if he's given an extended chance as a starting ML 2B.

[MrOrange82]

First off I apologize if I remembered incorrectly, I'm just remembering the gist, and also made sure to clarify that that was what I came to believe, myself, partly dissuaded by some of you and Drungo's arguments on the subject.

I'm not comparing Flaherty to Davis, though, I'm simply using Davis as a tangentially relevant example to illustrate my point. Anyways Jonesy in a few words probably does it better, Ryan racked up 1.4 WAR in half a season last season, without consistent ABs or continuity in the lineup. You of course can and will argue aberration/SSS, but it really isn't much of a stretch to suggest he could be a 3 WAR player if he's given an extended chance as a starting ML 2B.

Artificially inflated by unsustainable defensive stats. Unless you really believe that Ryan Flaherty is one of the five best defensive second basemen in baseball.

[Can_of_corn]

First off I apologize if I remembered incorrectly, I'm just remembering the gist, and also made sure to clarify that that was what I came to believe, myself, partly dissuaded by some of you and Drungo's arguments on the subject.

I'm not comparing Flaherty to Davis, though, I'm simply using Davis as a tangentially relevant example to illustrate my point. Anyways Jonesy in a few words probably does it better, Ryan racked up 1.4 WAR in half a season last season, without consistent ABs or continuity in the lineup. You of course can and will argue aberration/SSS, but it really isn't much of a stretch to suggest he could be a 3 WAR player if he's given an extended chance as a starting ML 2B.

Not offended in the least, I didn't bother to go back and check two year old threads either.

I certainly wasn't high on Davis, I didn't see a star in the making, I saw an affordable guy that could hold down the position for 3-4 years. Just like I see a usable utility guy in Flaherty.

As for the WAR, a LOT of that was defense related and he hasn't looked near as good this year. I was pretty surprised by how good he looked with the glove last year, after looking at the scouting reports and I really think it was more of a peak year from him with the glove then something we should expect going forward.

That doesn't mean I don't prefer him at third right now over Schoop and I do think he is the only viable backup SS the O's currently have that is ML ready.

[MrOrange82]

Bottom line, the more pitches he sees into the season, the better he hits. He has potential, he has never been given an extended chance. It's harder to hit well with sporadic AB than it is with regular ones. My guess we will be seeing more of Ryan as the season progresses.

FYI, going into today's game, Flaherty's OPS was ".798 in May." After today's game, Flaherty's May OPS dropped to .703. That's what happens when you go 0-4 and have only 30 ABs during the month.

That's also why it's ridiculous to bring up his monthly career stats to support the idea that Flash hits better as seasons go on when he only has 40-50 something ABs per month for each of his "good" months. Flaherty could hit two HRs tomorrow and see his May OPS skyrocket, or he could go 0-fer again and watch it drop into the mid/low .600's. And based on what we've all seen, I'd wager the latter is more likely.

[Jonesy10]

FYI, going into today's game, Flaherty's OPS was ".798 in May." After today's game, Flaherty's May OPS dropped to .703. That's what happens when you go 0-4 and have only 30 ABs during the month.

That's also why it's ridiculous to bring up his monthly career stats to support the idea that Flash hits better as seasons go on when he only has 40-50 something ABs per month for each of his "good" months. Flaherty could hit two HRs tomorrow and see his May OPS skyrocket, or he could go 0-fer again and watch it drop into the mid/low .600's. And based on what we've all seen, I'd wager the latter is more likely.

That .700 OPS also makes him look like Miguel Cabrera compared to Schoop.

[MrOrange82]

That .700 OPS also makes him look like Miguel Cabrera compared to Schoop.

That .703 OPS is an illusion, as was the .798 OPS a day ago. That's the point. Regardless of how bad Schoop looks right now.