Buck would not commit to Ubaldo getting another start.

[larrytt]

Got two starts since coming off the DL, that's not a chance. He didn't pitch badly last start and at the end of June he pitched a beauty against Texas. Is he inconsistent? Absolutely, but we all knew that. But he's pitched 3 games since June 30 before tonight.

His numbers before tonight was a 2-1 with a 3.66 ERA in those 3 starts with 11BB, 16Ks.

You could go back to May 29th and find since then he's actually been consistent with 3 bad games. In all those games he gave the O's 7 chances to win. O's lost 3 of those games despite Ubaldo giving up less then 3 runs.

So little perspective here.

Here's perspective. Gonzalez has a 2.43 ERA in July and August (six starts), and a 3.80 overall. (Take away his 5.19 ERA in April before he got going and he has an 3.39 ERA for the season.) Ubaldo has a 4.83 ERA, and you do not want to compare his July/August numbers with Gonzalez. Ubaldo only pitched well near the end of last season - it took him over half the season to get going. After his injury he's basically starting from scratch, so we can figure he'll start pitching well around December. Even if we give Ubaldo another start and he does well, that won't change anything since Gonzalez is doing that nearly every time.

[LookitsPuck]

Did Angelos make the call? it is his money. Yikes! 50 million for someone with awful pitching mechanics

That's Dan Duquette for you.

I said back in January about Ubaldo when the O's were looking at starters:

The trick with Ubaldo is determining whether or not his 2013 was an aberration...or reverting back to his form with the Rockies (2007-2010). And the other problems being his inability to pitch deep into games. And his high walk rate. If you recall earlier, the Orioles pitching staff did not pitch deep into games in 2013 (averaging 5 2/3 IP per start). And while Ubaldo's strikeout rate would be very welcome....his walks and inability to go deep will end up hurting the O's. In addition the question mark of consistency will come into play. One thing is for sure about Ubaldo: he has a higher ceiling. But Ubaldo isn't a guy you bank on for teams like the O's. If the O's already had a pitcher like James Shields...sure...go get Ubaldo. But not in this situation.

And I think the O's botched things by not getting Santana over Ubaldo contract wise:

With the draft pick loss associated to the signing of Ervin Santana and Ubaldo Jimenez...it'll end up driving down their costs. If you flash back to November of 2013, there were talks that Santana could be deserving of a $100 million contract. I contend that he'll be lucky to get a $40-$50 million contract.

I did a little digging around...and SB Nation had an interesting article titledErvin Santana free agency: Pitcher unlikely to beat Garza's deal. And in that article the subtitle explains it all: Santana may have to settle for as little as as three years and $40 million. I think if you look at Garza's contract (4 year, $50 million???$12.5 million annually)...then you can see what the max that Santana will get. Similar ages. Similar performing pitchers. The one thing Santana has going for him that Garza doesn't is durability. Either way, I expect Santana to sign somewhere for something like 3 year/$36 million. And while that's generally a bargain in an overly inflated market (driven by the increase in TV money for MLB teams)....it's $12 million a year and the loss of a draft pick. Aside from 2012, Santana has been worth about 3 WAR (2010, 2011, 2013).

But there are some strong things going right for Santana in the performance department. Over the last 4 years:

•210 IP/year

•32 games/year

•6 2/3 IP/game

•1.238 WHIP

•101 ERA+

•3.87 ERA

Generally speaking, those are solid numbers. If you leave out his 2012 season, his ERA's are as follows: 3.92 (2010), 3.38 (2011), 3.24 (2012). For the most part Santana has been a model of consistency and durability over the last 4 years.

All that said, Ubaldo was a huge risk. He's not as bad as his record or numbers suggest. He's been inconsistent. Some starts marvelous, some starts average, and some starts beyond awful.

Put quite simply, this club can't afford to keep trotting Ubaldo out there.

[SteveO]

Here's perspective. Gonzalez has a 2.43 ERA in July and August (six starts), and a 3.80 overall. (Take away his 5.19 ERA in April before he got going and he has an 3.39 ERA for the season.) Ubaldo has a 4.83 ERA, and you do not want to compare his July/August numbers with Gonzalez. Ubaldo only pitched well near the end of last season - it took him over half the season to get going. After his injury he's basically starting from scratch, so we can figure he'll start pitching well around December. Even if we give Ubaldo another start and he does well, that won't change anything since Gonzalez is doing that nearly every time.

Ubaldo is getting 50 million over 4 years and has no options.

Gonzo is cheap, under control and has options.

At the end of the day, like it or not that is the only perspective that really matters. Ubaldo will get at least one more start if not two ...bank it.

[larrytt]

And I am not saying he's not 6th best right now but to say he's a disaster this whole season would be wrong and that he's been given a chance since coming of the DL is wrong as well.

This is a forum where people called for the scalp of Tillman when he had a few bad games in a row and saying Chen is useless after the 6th already this year. It happens, it's baseball. Ubaldo's issue is control, not his lack of ability to pitch and despite all his walks since May.. his ERA (before tonight) has been 3.80 despite giving up 46 walks.

The problem is he's basically starting from scratch again, and so if we keep starting him, he'll likely repeat that horrible April performance. Last season he didn't really pitch well the first 3.5 months of the season. Meanwhile Gonzalez is completely out-pitching him, with a 2.43 ERA in July and August, and 3.39 since April, which is considerably better than Ubaldo since April. Can you really say you'd prefer Ubaldo over Gonzalez right now? Maybe, must maybe, we should accept what the stats, our eyes, and Jim Palmer are saying. There's really no comparison right now between the two.

[SteveO]

The problem is he's basically starting from scratch again, and so if we keep starting him, he'll likely repeat that horrible April performance. Last season he didn't really pitch well the first 3.5 months of the season. Meanwhile Gonzalez is completely out-pitching him, with a 2.43 ERA in July and August, and 3.39 since April, which is considerably better than Ubaldo since April. Can you really say you'd prefer Ubaldo over Gonzalez right now? Maybe, must maybe, we should accept what the stats, our eyes, and Jim Palmer are saying. There's really no comparison right now between the two.

That's easy for a bunch of people who wont have to answer at the end of the season why they spent 50 million on the guy to their boss to say .......

Like it or not...that matters. Give him a couple more starts then Buck and DD can say to Petey...well he got hurt, never got straight so we pulled the plug.

[BradyBunch]

Here's perspective. Gonzalez has a 2.43 ERA in July and August (six starts), and a 3.80 overall. (Take away his 5.19 ERA in April before he got going and he has an 3.39 ERA for the season.) Ubaldo has a 4.83 ERA, and you do not want to compare his July/August numbers with Gonzalez. Ubaldo only pitched well near the end of last season - it took him over half the season to get going. After his injury he's basically starting from scratch, so we can figure he'll start pitching well around December. Even if we give Ubaldo another start and he does well, that won't change anything since Gonzalez is doing that nearly every time.

So let me lay it out so you understand. Drop all of April for Ubaldo like you did Gonzo and you got 3.80 ERA before tonight for Ubaldo. Ubaldo was pitching well in May and June people forget it because it wasn't pretty. Ubaldo get's hurt and he's off for 1 month and loses his groove.

You do realize Gonzo had a 6.14 ERA in June right? That he has one good month, then one bad month, then one good month. He's on par for a bad month in August since he pitched above his own ability in July.

So when I say Gonzo will have a 4 to 5 ERA for August if he pitches 2 more games this month.. will you say you were wrong?

I'll admit I was wrong if he pitches sub 4 ERA.

[larrytt]

Ubaldo is getting 50 million over 4 years and has no options.

Gonzo is cheap, under control and has options.

At the end of the day, like it or not that is the only perspective that really matters. Ubaldo will get at least one more start if not two ...bank it.

And that, my friends, could be the beginning of the end of the Orioles winning ways, when we no longer even attempt to put the best team on the field. I'll be rather disappointed in Buck if Gonzalez doesn't replace Ubaldo in the rotation as soon as he is back. Here's perspective - a person with basic baseball knowledge who starts Gonzalez is a more effective manager than a brilliant one who starts Ubaldo. Buck is going to blow another Manager of the Year award (and perhaps a pennant race) if he keeps throwing out Ubaldo in place of Gonzalez, the guy with the 3.39 ERA since April and 2.43 ERA in July and August.

[larrytt]

So let me lay it out so you understand. Drop all of April for Ubaldo like you did Gonzo and you got 3.80 ERA before tonight for Ubaldo. Ubaldo was pitching well in May and June people forget it because it wasn't pretty. Ubaldo get's hurt and he's off for 1 month and loses his groove.

You do realize Gonzo had a 6.14 ERA in June right? That he has one good month, then one bad month, then one good month. He's on par for a bad month in August since he pitched above his own ability in July.

So when I say Gonzo will have a 4 to 5 ERA for August if he pitches 2 more games this month.. will you say you were wrong?

I'll admit I was wrong if he pitches sub 4 ERA.

Actually, you were the one who dropped April for Ubaldo, so I did the same for Gonzalez, and Gonzalez has better stats. But why are you dropping off what Ubaldo did tonight? The most recent performances would seem to be important. As to August, Gonzalez has already had two starts to a 4.09 ERA. Ubaldo has also had two starts in August to a 7.84 ERA. Or we could look at July, where Gonzalez had a 1.82 ERA, and Ubaldo had a 9.84 in his one start. The problem is that Ubaldo is basically starting over because of his injury, and both last year and this year he had slow starts. Even if he starts pitching well again, he is unlikely to do any better than Gonzalez, and he's also likely to do far worse, as his performance has indicated. If we didn't have five other starters doing really well we should continue to start Ubaldo, but that's not the case. He's clearly not one of our five top starters right now.

But I'm confused - are you seriously arguing that Ubaldo is pitching better than Gonzalez???

[SteveO]

And that, my friends, could be the beginning of the end of the Orioles winning ways, when we no longer even attempt to put the best team on the field. I'll be rather disappointed in Buck if Gonzalez doesn't replace Ubaldo in the rotation as soon as he is back. Here's perspective - a person with basic baseball knowledge who starts Gonzalez is a more effective manager than a brilliant one who starts Ubaldo. Buck is going to blow another Manager of the Year award (and perhaps a pennant race) if he keeps throwing out Ubaldo in place of Gonzalez, the guy with the 3.39 ERA since April and 2.43 ERA in July and August.

Little dramatic don't ya think... giving Ubaldo two more starts will be the beginning of the end ...seriously?

Here is a little perspective a manager who lobbied for SP like everyone on this board thought we would need and then signed off on spending 50 million on a guy only to dump him after one so-so start and one bad start since coming off the DL is a guy who does not understand that to a owner like Pete, money has tangible value. Good luck getting money next time you need it. Pete is smart enough to accept that the guy was hurt and there are better options if we want to win the division. He is also smart enough to know that 2 starts since coming off the DL is not really enough to determine that ...4 might be

Have you forgotten who our owner is and who DD and Buck work for. Winning matters dont get me wrong but money does also to Pete. At the end of the day how many people on here would spend 50 million dollars of THEIR bosses money and then just say...oh well and move on without saying they tried everything they could ?

[larrytt]

Little dramatic don't ya think... giving Ubaldo two more starts will be the beginning of the end ...seriously?

Here is a little perspective a manager who lobbied for SP like everyone on this board thought we would need and then signed off on spending 50 million on a guy only to dump him after one so-so start and one bad start since coming off the DL is a guy who does not understand that to a owner like Pete, money has tangible value. Good luck getting money next time you need it. Pete is smart enough to accept that the guy was hurt and there are better options if we want to win the division. He is also smart enough to know that 2 starts since coming off the DL is not really enough to determine that ...4 might be

Have you forgotten who our owner is and who DD and Buck work for. Winning matters dont get me wrong but money does also to Pete. At the end of the day how many people on here would spend 50 million dollars of THEIR bosses money and then just say...oh well and move on without saying they tried everything they could ?

Hopefully there's more money in making sure we win the pennant by pitching Gonzalez than possibly blowing a few more with Ubaldo while Gonzalez loses his groove. The irony is that if they do go with Ubaldo and he continues to do poorly, then (with the Yankees or Toronto suddenly breathing possibly down our necks) we'll go back to Gonzalez, except he'll no longer be in the same groove. (Pitching in the minors isn't the same as pitching in the majors.) Ubaldo is with us for three years, so he'll have two more years to get his own groove back. In Gonzalez we had a guy who was pitching well, and we chose to fix something that not only wasn't broken, but was working extremely well.

[BradyBunch]

The problem is he's basically starting from scratch again, and so if we keep starting him, he'll likely repeat that horrible April performance. Last season he didn't really pitch well the first 3.5 months of the season. Meanwhile Gonzalez is completely out-pitching him, with a 2.43 ERA in July and August, and 3.39 since April, which is considerably better than Ubaldo since April. Can you really say you'd prefer Ubaldo over Gonzalez right now? Maybe, must maybe, we should accept what the stats, our eyes, and Jim Palmer are saying. There's really no comparison right now between the two.

He's already pitched better then his April performance last start. He got a win! :rofl:

Gonzo only out pitched him in July. Gonzo was pitching over his ability, period. Gonzo will go back to mean and the mean is worse the what Ubaldo has been doing since May in ERA. Gonzo had a 6 plus ERA in June. A good May and a horrible April. What makes you think he is 100% consistent for the next 5 starts? He's been up and down as much as Ubaldo has been.

Stats say Ubaldo isn't pitching bad and all season has pitched his ass off limiting the damage of his walks . Stats say Gonzo is punching above his weight right now, same with Gausman. Your eyes can deceive you. One bad game after just getting of the DL less a week ago and everybody acts as the world is over. Pitchers have nights when they don't have their stuff. Tonight was one of them and he couldn't grind it out cause for whatever reason.. lack of offense so pressure was on him to be perfect and so on.

Palmer can say what he wants. He's a paid pundit.

[BradyBunch]

Actually, you were the one who dropped April for Ubaldo, so I did the same for Gonzalez, and Gonzalez has better stats. But why are you dropping off what Ubaldo did tonight? The most recent performances would seem to be important. As to August, Gonzalez has already had two starts to a 4.09 ERA. Ubaldo has also had two starts in August to a 7.84 ERA. Or we could look at July, where Gonzalez had a 1.82 ERA, and Ubaldo had a 9.84 in his one start. The problem is that Ubaldo is basically starting over because of his injury, and both last year and this year he had slow starts. Even if he starts pitching well again, he is unlikely to do any better than Gonzalez, and he's also likely to do far worse, as his performance has indicated. If we didn't have five other starters doing really well we should continue to start Ubaldo, but that's not the case. He's clearly not one of our five top starters right now.

But I'm confused - are you seriously arguing that Ubaldo is pitching better than Gonzalez???

I responded to the Gonzo part, Gonzo is pitching out of his league.. I left tonights stats off because well.. I didn't want to do the math when I started responding and also it's ONE game after coming of the DL.

I am saying Gonzo is pitching above his class. Gonzo will be a 4 ERA or better pitcher the rest of the year.

[BradyBunch]

Hopefully there's more money in making sure we win the pennant by pitching Gonzalez than possibly blowing a few more with Ubaldo while Gonzalez loses his groove. The irony is that if they do go with Ubaldo and he continues to do poorly, then (with the Yankees or Toronto suddenly breathing possibly down our necks) we'll go back to Gonzalez, except he'll no longer be in the same groove. (Pitching in the minors isn't the same as pitching in the majors.) Ubaldo is with us for three years, so he'll have two more years to get his own groove back. In Gonzalez we had a guy who was pitching well, and we chose to fix something that not only wasn't broken, but was working extremely well.

Gonzo hasn't pitched consistently month to month all year. He's up and down. He already is pitching worse then he did in July.

[SteveO]

Hopefully there's more money in making sure we win the pennant by pitching Gonzalez than possibly blowing a few more with Ubaldo while Gonzalez loses his groove. The irony is that if they do go with Ubaldo and he continues to do poorly, then (with the Yankees or Toronto suddenly breathing possibly down our necks) we'll go back to Gonzalez, except he'll no longer be in the same groove. (Pitching in the minors isn't the same as pitching in the majors.) Ubaldo is with us for three years, so he'll have two more years to get his own groove back. In Gonzalez we had a guy who was pitching well, and we chose to fix something that not only wasn't broken, but was working extremely well.

Tell me how well that worked out for Davey and Pat when we spent a ton on Albert Belle? I still believe that contract and the injury is what lead to the angst that ensued later. DD and Buck are smart guys and they probably have an inkling about how Petey would react. They wont let it go in the crapper to CYA but they will give Ubaldo every chance to turn it around IMO. If they don't then hats off to them....if they do then I get it.

I think DD and Buck will pull the plug once they build a little cover for themselves on why they did it.

[O's are Legends]

I responded to the Gonzo part, Gonzo is pitching out of his league.. I left tonights stats off because well.. I didn't want to do the math when I started responding and also it's ONE game after coming of the DL.

I am saying Gonzo is pitching above his class. Gonzo will be a 4 ERA or better pitcher the rest of the year.

I guess MG has been pitching above his class his entire career then since his career era is 3.64. Ubaldo's era this year is nearing 5 and is a walking machine. No way Ubaldo this season is a better option than MG going down the stretch.