The Cavalry Is Starting To Arrive

[Frobby]

I think with the Orioles it is a team philosophy.Not sure about the other teams.

In an interview with Orioles executive vice president of baseball operations Dan Duquette on Wednesday at Camden Yards, Duquette made it clear he is not a fan of young pitchers throwing cut fastballs.

The Orioles have forbid their top pitching prospect, Dylan Bundy, from throwing his cutter this year and based on Duquette's comments yesterday, that policy may not be changing anytime soon.

"The philosophy of the organization is to encourage pitchers to develop a good delivery, command of their fastball, an off-speed pitch and a good breaking ball," Duquette said. "The first breaking ball that we work with our young pitchers on is a curveball. So that is basically the level of progression of our instruction and our organization philosophy.

"First of all, the cut fastball, we don't like it as a pitch, OK? And we don't like it for young pitchers because it takes away from the development of their curveball, which is a better pitch long-term and also, the velocity of their fastball. So we encourage development of an overhand breaking ball that has depth along with command of their fastball and, of course, velocity and movement will get the hitter out."

http://www.masnsports.com/steve-melewski/2012/08/dan-duquette-on-the-os-pitching-philosophy-we-dont-like-the-cutter.html

Right. That was what Duquette said three years ago in the interview you quoted. I had been wondering whether that philosophy only applied to minor leaguers who were in development, or whether it was discouraged at the major league level as well. That's why I looked up the stats showing us right near the bottom in cutter usage. Also, I recall last year that Wallace and Chiti prevailed on Tommy Hunter to stop throwing the cutter, with good results.

I think one philosophical question is: assume 80% of pitchers would be better off not using a cutter for the reasons Duquette gave. Do you enforce a "no cutters" philosophy on all your pitchers, on the assumption that you can't easily separate out the 20% who would benefit from using the pitch? Or do you try to figure out which pitchers can benefit from the cutter, and let them use it? Or, do you let them use it only late in their development, after they've honed their other pitches? Depending on which view you take, you can justify not letting Arrieta use the pitch if you think most pitchers benefit from that approach and it's hard to discern which ones won't -- at least to a point.

[Going Underground]

Right. That was what Duquette said three years ago in the interview you quoted. I had been wondering whether that philosophy only applied to minor leaguers who were in development, or whether it was discouraged at the major league level as well. That's why I looked up the stats showing us right near the bottom in cutter usage. Also, I recall last year that Wallace and Chiti prevailed on Tommy Hunter to stop throwing the cutter, with good results.

I think one philosophical question is: assume 80% of pitchers would be better off not using a cutter for the reasons Duquette gave. Do you enforce a "no cutters" philosophy on all your pitchers, on the assumption that you can't easily separate out the 20% who would benefit from using the pitch? Or do you try to figure out which pitchers can benefit from the cutter, and let them use it? Or, do you let them use it only late in their development, after they've honed their other pitches? Depending on which view you take, you can justify not letting Arrieta use the pitch if you think most pitchers benefit from that approach and it's hard to discern which ones won't -- at least to a point.

Good question. I wonder if a reporter would ask Duquette about signing a veteran with a cutter. I know veteran pitchers often show younger players how to throw certain pitches. I know the Cubs seem to love the cutter. The Nationals,who seem to be near the bottom on cutter use over the years,let Max Scherzer develop one in the spring. Might just be because he is a veteran.

[QBsILLEST1]

I came across this article while looking for something else. Arrieta became really good because the Cubs let him throw the cutter and the Orioles did not?

What's going on here? Well, with Jake Arrieta it's fairly clear: he has developed and is being encouraged to actually use his cutter by the organization that traded for him. Those that have followed the adventures of Baltimore's Executive Vice President of Baseball Operations Dan Duquette and his Director of Pitching Development Rick Peterson will remember this bizarre sidestory from 2012, when Duquette and Peterson ordered every pitcher in the organization to just? stop using the cutter. But the problem wasn't with the cutter itself: the problem was that no one in the Baltimore minor league organization under either Duquette or his predecessor, Andy MacPhail, was able to teach Baltimore's prospects how to effectively use the pitch?and so the new regime decided, at least publicly, to just toss the thing out the window.

https://sports.vice.com/en_us/article/you-got-played-how-the-cubs-salvaged-the-orioles-failed-pitching-prospects

Dude I could teach the Orioles pitchers how to use a cutter effectively. I dont buy that crap.

[Going Underground]

Dude I could teach the Orioles pitchers how to use a cutter effectively. I dont buy that crap.

But you would not be an Oriole coach unless they changed their philosophy in three years.

[QBsILLEST1]

But you would not be an Oriole coach unless they changed their philosophy in three years.

Yeah but is their philosophy based on not knowing how to use it or because they truly disagree with the damage it can do?

[Going Underground]

Yeah but is their philosophy based on not knowing how to use it or because they truly disagree with the damage it can do?

They think it hurts your velocity. Saw this article from this year. More confusing about what is a cutter or cut fastball.

Sliders and changeups do better, but -- theoretically at least -- you can throw the cutter more often than those pitches. If it's a fastball. More on this later.

The second stated reason was about fastball velocity and arm health. Increased cutter usage led to lower radar gun readings and lower arm strength, Duquette and Director of Pitching Development Rick Peterson felt. "What happens is you start to get off to the side of the baseball (with your grip) and then you’re no longer consistently behind the baseball," Peterson said of the way the cutter steals velocity from a fastball.

The thing is, there are two vastly different types of cutters, and grip factors in. When Duquette was asked about pitchers that had done well with the pitch, Mariano Rivera in particular, he pointed to the difference between a "cutter" and a "cut fastball." "Name me all the pitchers in the big leagues that make a living with a cut fastball. Rivera's is a fastball. It moves," he said.

http://www.foxsports.com/mlb/just-a-bit-outside/story/how-the-cutter-grip-can-affect-arm-strength-bumgarner-ottavino-rivera-042015