Insights on the Norris trade from the Astros hacking articles

[Redskins Rick]

The trade was needed to be made, they traded mid-range prospects for a daily starting pitcher.

Hoes is at AAA, during well in the PCL.

Hader had a rough start at AA last year, but doing better this year.

Like Buck said about E-Rod, you have to give up talent to get talent.

Bud was an important part of last year's team and deserves credit, just like the rest of the roster does.

Even, if Bud is gone after this season, and he probably will be, it doesn't make this a bad trade

[Frobby]

3. The deal Duquette offered (Wright and Strop) arguably is better than the deal the Astros got.

Hader and the comp pick was and still is the better package.

How is Hader the better package? Hoes isn't a ML. Hader is very unlikely to be one and the comp pick is speculative.

Wright is a ML, either as a SP or RP. Strop showed he can be a valuable piece out of the pen with a change of scenery.

Here we go. Bring it on old guard.

1. They've shown the ability to draft well consistently. That pick wasn't all about the player taken but the money that it added to the overall draft pool. Heck I don't even know who they chose. So getting the comp pick was ideal for them.

2. Hader has a higher ceiling than Wright. As much as I like Mike Wright, he can't always pitch on 11 days rest. He's likely a 4/5 starter or a set up guy. Hader is likely to reach the majors a full 3-4 years younger in age before Wright did. Even if they end up as equal value, I'll always take the lefty.

3. At the time of the trade Strop had little value. He was about to be DFA'd. Being as the Astros were first in line on the DFA list they could have just claimed him. He had 0 options. Was failing in the AL. For a team that didn't expect to compete to 2016, Strop would only have had 1 year of worth to them. And be expensive on top of that. He's making 2.3 million this year. Probably 4 million in 2016 and 6 million in 2017.

4. Hoes. While he hasn't worked out for them, he was still one of our top position players. Plus he's always had good AAA numbers and still 25 with 6 years of control. His career .612 OPS isn't terrible for a 5th OF'er that can play CF. I don't know about you but I'd love to have a 25 year old OF in AAA right now with a .419 OBP.

I think I'm going to have to agree with their GM on said trade packages.

Here's another way to look at it: we gave up Arrieta and Strop for 3 months of Feldman. Certainly 2.3 years of Norris > .5 years of Feldman, right?

I thought we were talking about the Norris trade though? Old guard to the rescue. I gotta just start calling you guys out.

I don't understand what "old guard" means here. I mean, as it happens, I am relatively old compared to many posters, but what has that got to do with anything?

You tried to come to their weak defense. Bringing up a trade and player that had nothing to do with the conversation. Stop being so sensitive. Sometimes I wonder if certain fans would rather just root for a team that lost for 14 years straight. Sometimes it's hard to root for a winner.

I suggest that you take a careful look at this exchange. Whose "weak defense" did I come to? First, I didn't express any strong opinion on the merits of Wright/Strop vs. Hoes/Hader/Pick -- I said the deal originally offered by Duquette was "arguably" the better deal for the Astros. So, all I was trying to do was invite some discussion of that issue. But even if I had said the Wright/Strop deal was the better one for the Astros, how would that be "defending" the Orioles? That would show that the Orioles offered more than they needed to offer, which would be a stupid thing to do. Really, what I was trying to illustrate was that the Astros played their hand very aggressively at first, and then lost some leverage as time went on. The Arrieta/Strop point is relevant to that suggestion, because if the O's were willing to offer that package for 3 months of Feldman, they certainly would have offered it for 2.3 years of Norris (and we know discussions already were ongoing on Norris, because Strop was offered in the package with Wright). But, as the Norris negotiations dragged on, that package was no longer available, because Arrieta and Strop (which I'd say was a better package than the Wright/Strop package offered for Norris) were traded to the Cubs.

Second, I don't see where I was being "so sensitive." I asked what you meant by "old guard." I didn't understand what you meant by that term, as applied to me. I don't understand what you are "calling me out" for. Nor do I understand what you mean by the last two sentences in the quote directly above. I don't see how those remarks have anything to do with anything I posted.

The irony here is that I think the posters (including you) who liked the Hoes/Hader/Pick package better than the Wright/Strop package made some valid points in this thread about the merits of those packages. But your other remarks distract from the valid points you made.

[Phantom]

Dan has done this for a long time. If you shoot people down out of the gate, nothing gets done and the conversation is done and over. If you tell people maybe so it keeps deals alive, keeps them talking and gives them time to think about things and develop alternatives.

It doesn't necessarily mean Bundy was ever going to be traded.

Agreed. Every GM does this. Hell, every smart roto player knows this trick. You keep them on the line, and shift around the pieces until they are favorable to you.

[Crazysilver03]

Which draft are we saying they screwed up? The 2014 draft? We can grade drafts now only 1 year after they happen? They got a pick in this years draft for the Aiken pick. How can we say in 2015 that they "screwed" up the 2014 draft?

Ah so the answer is yes. You are intentionally ignoring the caveat that the original poster made to qualify "bombing" the 2014 draft. Seems most people understand what the comment was about but you want to get bent out of shape about it. No one is actually judging the draft a year later, as you like to assume.

Sent from my LG-D850 using Tapatalk

[Orioles0615]

Really Astros? Bundy or Gausman for Norris? And this was in 2013 too when their value was higher.

[weams]

Agreed. Every GM does this. Hell, every smart roto player knows this trick. You keep them on the line, and shift around the pieces until they are favorable to you.

I wonder what a phone conversation with Dan Duquette sounds like? I wonder how it develops? I don't imagine it starts out with a veiled insult as most smarmy roto shot in the dark's do.

[Redskins Rick]

I wonder what a phone conversation with Dan Duquette sounds like? I wonder how it develops? I don't imagine it starts out with a veiled insult as most smarmy roto shot in the dark's do.

I also doubt he tries to trade players he no longer has under contract either.

[weams]

The irony here is that I think the posters (including you) who liked the Hoes/Hader/Pick package better than the Wright/Strop package made some valid points in this thread about the merits of those packages. But your other remarks distract from the valid points you made.

It's part of the "have a take" mentality that we see so often these days. Even Roy was deriding on his last radio show. It's not a part of reasonable debating techniques or even intelligent conversation. No need to ever call a fellow out.

[weams]

Attacking Frobby? What's up with the New Guard?

There is no new guard. There are however, disrupters.

[Tony-OH]

For the record (while it's not a popular view I'm sure), I don't think Mike Wright is a sure fire starter either. I think there is a risk his stuff plays down over the long haul and later into starts, but I also think he's a quality late-inning arm at a minimum.

I've been saying that for years until I saw him in his first start. He really held onto his stuff and was hitting 97 near 100 pitches, but since then he's kinda slid back to what he's always been. My opinion is that Wright can be a 4th/5th starter. He reminds me a bit of Bud Norris in that he's always going to be inconsistent to some degree, but he's going to have some games where he'll dominate. His command, which was pretty good his first two major league starts, has fallen back a bit to his minor league levels, perhaps because that extra adrenaline is gone.

Either way, at worse Wright can end up a back of the bullpen type of arm, but I'm not sure he misses enough bats consistently enough to be a shut down guy out there. He could easily be a cheaper replacement for Hunter though.

[waroriole]

Dang, You can honestly say they "bombed" on a draft after 1 year? After that I can't have a baseball conversation with you.

They bombed by running out of money. They didn't get their top guy, and had to void s contract because they didn't have the available funds for it.

Based on your "old guard" comments and interaction with Frobby, it's clear you don't have anything to contribute. Stotle makes legit arguments in favor of Hader and all you do is try to pick fights and read what suits you. Enjoy.