ZIPS predicts that Machado will be the 2nd best player over the next 5 years

[El Gordo]

Mantle put up his numbers in spite of injury, alcohol, and inferior training, against arguably the best pitching in the history of MLB. Trout's defense is already going south, I wouldn't be surprised to see Manny pass him in WAR because of his glove.

[Can_of_corn]

Mantle put up his numbers in spite of injury, alcohol, and inferior training, against arguably the best pitching in the history of MLB. Trout's defense is already going south, I wouldn't be surprised to see Manny pass him in WAR because of his glove.

I would be interested in hearing that argument.

[EagleOriole]

Mantle put up his numbers in spite of injury, alcohol, and inferior training, against arguably the best pitching in the history of MLB. Trout's defense is already going south, I wouldn't be surprised to see Manny pass him in WAR because of his glove.

Maybe TOR pitchers were greater than today, but there is no way the depth of talent was a good back then.

[DrungoHazewood]

Maybe TOR pitchers were greater than today, but there is no way the depth of talent was a good back then.

I don't think that argument would stand up to scrutiny. Also, the depth should be obvious. And the strategy was still mainly stuck in 1920, trying to get starters to pace themselves and throw at 80% most of the time so they could throw complete games. The bullpen, instead of being a shutdown weapon, was maybe one fireman and the rest were mostly a few guys hanging out in case the starter got bombed. The 1954 Orioles had eight saves all year.

[Can_of_corn]

Maybe TOR pitchers were greater than today, but there is no way the depth of talent was a good back then.

1- Defense is better now then ever before.

2- Strike outs are at an all time high.

3- Walks are at an all time low.

In the 1950's the K average K rate for pitchers was 4.4. In the 1960's it was 5.7.

It was 7.63 last season.

[DrungoHazewood]

In the 1950's the K average K rate for pitchers was 4.4. In the 1960's it was 5.7.

It was 7.63 last season.

And the strike zone today is probably about 60% of the size of the zone in the 50s and 60s. In Mantle's rookie year, 1951, the league K:BB ratio was 1:1 with a knees-to-shoulders zone. How do you walk 7 men per nine with a strike zone that big? If you put Bob Turley in a time machine to 2015 he'd walk the bases loaded on 14 pitches and tell somebody to get him the heck back to 1955.

[Frobby]

Mantle put up his numbers in spite of injury, alcohol, and inferior training, against arguably the best pitching in the history of MLB. Trout's defense is already going south, I wouldn't be surprised to see Manny pass him in WAR because of his glove.

Injuries - OK, fine.

Alcohol - No excuse there. That's on Mantle.

Inferior Training - True of all players in that era, so Mantle was at no disadvantage there.

Pitching - I don't think the pitching then was better, at all.

[El Gordo]

Injuries - OK, fine.

Alcohol - No excuse there. That's on Mantle.

Inferior Training - True of all players in that era, so Mantle was at no disadvantage there.

Pitching - I don't think the pitching then was better, at all.

The 60's had the best pitching ever.

[Can_of_corn]

The 60's had the best pitching ever.

Oldfan, are you hacking accounts again?

[weams]

Oldfan, are you hacking accounts again?

"The 60's had the highest mounds, ever."

[Redskins Rick]

I don't think that argument would stand up to scrutiny. Also, the depth should be obvious. And the strategy was still mainly stuck in 1920, trying to get starters to pace themselves and throw at 80% most of the time so they could throw complete games. The bullpen, instead of being a shutdown weapon, was maybe one fireman and the rest were mostly a few guys hanging out in case the starter got bombed. The 1954 Orioles had eight saves all year.

I agree with what you said and would also add, lowing the pitching mound 5 inches, helps the hitters out today. of course, just my opinion.

[Stotle]

I buy it. If he stays healthy he's a superstar.

[DrungoHazewood]

The 60's had the best pitching ever.

I can find you a bushel basket of quotes from knowledgeable persons claiming that the 1860s were the best era for baseball and it's been all downhill since. So, depending on which '60s you're talking about, maybe you're right.

[pollaxt]

There will come a time in the near future when folks will stop using the Mantle comparison since it will be obvious that it is selling Trout short.

No one wants to start comparing Trout to Willie Mays because that would be comparing to Trout to one of the top 3 baseball players of all time, but it's getting clear that Mays is a more apt comparison than Mantle.

[Redskins Rick]

I can find you a bushel basket of quotes from knowledgeable persons claiming that the 1860s were the best era for baseball and it's been all downhill since. So, depending on which '60s you're talking about, maybe you're right.

Some consider 1968 to be the year of the pitcher. The batting title was won with a .301.

League average ERA was under 3.

Highest team ERA was 3.64

Orioles and Indians were tied at 2.66 and league leading team ERA.

McClain was 31 games.

Gibson had a 1.12 ERA and ten pitchers were under .245

Gibson threw 13 shutouts.

Gibson went a span of 99 innings and gave up 3 runs.

Gibson had a 47 scoreless inning run.

Drysdale threw 59 scoreless innings.