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Rosenthal on Manny at SS

wildcard

By wildcard
in Orioles Talk

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Beef Supreme Hangout Veteran Council

Beef Supreme

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Posted
2 hours ago, OrioleDog said:

If I'm Manny and thinking about how I want to maximize my legacy, I let SS go.

Here's the mountain to climb:

http://www.fangraphs.com/graphsw.aspx?players=11493,1011586&wg=2

Manny's 80th percentile for the next 15 years is probably enough to unseat Schmidt and establish himself as the greatest 3B of all-time.  I also think his shot at 12000 career PA's is better at 3B - middle infield is just more dangerous.

Also, if he wants to end up with something like Stan Musial and Ted Williams as his peer group, then he should spend his entire career with one team!

Being the greatest shortstop of all time wouldn't maximize his legacy compared to being one of the greatest thirdbasemen of all time?

(I know we are getting way ahead of ourselves here with the speculation...)

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weams Hangout Grand Counsel

weams

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3 hours ago, esmd said:

He's getting compared to Brooks Robinson.  Legitimate comparison, not just some guy spouting who doesn't know any better.  Let that sink in for a moment.

Leave him at 3rd and let him become one of the all-time greats.  Don't weaken two positions by moving him to SS.

I think that is Manny's plan as well.

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Matt Bennett Major Leaguer Cup of Coffee

Matt Bennett

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16 minutes ago, Frobby said:

Just to shed some minor light on the issue, in the AL for 2016 the average OPS was .773 for 3B and .725 for SS.

That is incredible isn't it? In 2014, average ML SS OPS was .669. In 2016 it was .726. A golden age for shortstops. Highest slugging percentage every recorded. A few years ago, the justification for moving Manny to short to increase positional value was a lot stronger.

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waroriole Hangout Grand Counsel

waroriole

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12 hours ago, Il BuonO said:

Machado is more athletic than was Ripken. He makes many plays instinctively. Cal was great at positioning and more cerebral than Manny, who hasn't ever struck me as having a high baseball IQ. Although, I'm sure at the high level which he plays, it isn't necessary.

 

http://deadspin.com/5942850/manny-machado-faked-out-the-orioles-announcers-camera-crew-26076-fans-and-one-tampa-bay-ray?trending_test_e&utm_expid=66866090-62.YkETBcIMTk2uX1oytHipyg.5&utm_referrer=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.google.com%2F

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Just Regular Hangout Grand Counsel

Just Regular

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2 hours ago, Beef Supreme said:

Being the greatest shortstop of all time wouldn't maximize his legacy compared to being one of the greatest thirdbasemen of all time?

(I know we are getting way ahead of ourselves here with the speculation...)

He's already "misplaced" 25 WAR at 3B, plus Honus Wagner's got 25 WAR on Schmidt.

Two more 7 WAR years here and he'll be halfway to Brooks upon attaining free agency.

 

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esmd All-Star

esmd

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7 hours ago, Beef Supreme said:

You think Machado would not be one of the all-time greats at SS, hitting .290 with 400 HRs? And maybe a handful of Gold Gloves? I strongly disagree with you on that.

Hardy will be 36 next August. He is frequently injured for extended periods at this point in his career. I disagree that the Orioles would be weakening the SS position once Machado becomes re-acclimated to playing SS.

The offense isn't really a concern.  Manny is going to hit whereever, that's not the point.

Offense

Manny at 3rd = Manny at SS

Hardy vs replacement SS is a question mark

 

Defense

Manny at SS < Manny at 3B

ANYBODY at 3B < Manny at 3B

 

So if you put Manny at SS and plug someone else in 3B, you weaken the entire left side of your infield.  If you leave Manny alone replace Hardy, you only have to worry about replacing Hardy's production offensively and defensively, which while not easy (mostly defensively), is certainly much preferable than weakening the entire left side of your infield defense.

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El Gordo Hangout Grand Counsel

El Gordo

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Y

8 hours ago, esmd said:

The offense isn't really a concern.  Manny is going to hit whereever, that's not the point.

Offense

Manny at 3rd = Manny at SS

Hardy vs replacement SS is a question mark

 

Defense

Manny at SS < Manny at 3B

ANYBODY at 3B < Manny at 3B

 

So if you put Manny at SS and plug someone else in 3B, you weaken the entire left side of your infield.  If you leave Manny alone replace Hardy, you only have to worry about replacing Hardy's production offensively and defensively, which while not easy (mostly defensively), is certainly much preferable than weakening the entire left side of your infield defense.

Yes!:awesome:

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DJHJR86 Major Leaguer Cup of Coffee

DJHJR86

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I still don't understand this fascination some fans have with moving Manny to SS.  As others have noted, what difference would it make to the team if we moved him to SS compared to keeping him at 3B?  Leave him where's he had the most experience in the majors.  

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Beef Supreme Hangout Veteran Council

Beef Supreme

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What is in the best interest of the Orioles when JJ is done? They don't have anyone in the system ready to play SS at the major-league level that I know of. Sign a free-agent SS? Good luck.

I want the most valuable player at the most valuable position. Aces in their places. And the infield is far stronger defensively with Manny at SS, ok defender at 3B rather than Manny at 3B, ok defender at SS.

Here are your 2017-18 free agents, by position, just in case Hardy is not back in 2018. (He certainly won't be back in 2019). You want Stephen Drew at SS while Manny fields half as many balls at 3B? Or maybe Erick Aybar satisfies your need at SS. The only person on that list i would even consider play SS over Manny is Espinosa. I don't see a very good option for SS in the bunch.

 

Shortstops

Alexi Amarista (29) — $2.5MM club option with a $150K buyout
Erick Aybar (34)
Darwin Barney (32)
Asdrubal Cabrera (32) — $8.5MM club option with a $2MM buyout
Zack Cozart (32)
Stephen Drew (35)
Alcides Escobar (31)
Danny Espinosa (31)
J.J. Hardy (35) — $14MM club option with a $2MM buyout
Jed Lowrie (34) — $6MM club option with a $1MM buyout
Eduardo Nunez (31)
Cliff Pennington (34)
Jhonny Peralta (36)
Adam Rosales (35)

Third Basemen

Andres Blanco (34)
Yunel Escobar (35)
Ryan Flaherty (31)
Todd Frazier (32)
Jed Lowrie (34) — $6MM club option with a $1MM buyout
Mike Moustakas (29)
Eduardo Nunez (31)
Jhonny Peralta (36)
Trevor Plouffe (32)
Jose Reyes (35)
Danny Valencia (33)

 

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