Are we a bad team masquerading as a mediocre one?

[InsideCoroner]

The pitching has been shambolic, and the defense has been below average. Then again, if you had told me at the start of the season that  Caleb Joseph and his zero RBI would end up with more fWAR than Davis, Trumbo, Hardy, Rickard, Smith, Kim and Alvarez combined, I certainly wouldn't have believed it. 

[Tbone83]

If we could just trade for/develop more 1B and DH and convert them into outfielders, we'd be fine. 

[Tx Oriole]

16 hours ago, hoosiers said:

Not a believer in this team or this GM.  Trottng out the starting pitching of Ubaldo, Hellickson, Miley, etc should be considered embarrassing.  Thankfully, the medical staff saved us from eating the Gallardo contract in full.

Thankfully, many other AL teams have their own issues, but I consider us two to three quality players weaker than Cleveland, Boston and other playoff teams.

I don't think the team will win a WS with DD and Buck on board. Its sad the pitching is so piss poor. Such bad decisions made. Hopefully the Angelos sons will or are better at the ownership than their pop. Maybe they can bring in a good GM and a good manager. Turn this organization around. Probably won't happen but I can dream of better days ahead for the team. 

 

 

[Tx Oriole]

15 hours ago, Can_of_corn said:

You know which we are going get.

I know what we will get Can. A patch here and a patch there. 

 

[eddie83]

We have issues but outside of a couple of teams, most teams are flawed. The Yankees look pretty complete, I still think odds are next year some of their position players regress. The Indians are loaded, the Astros are loaded position player wise but I still see pitching issues - much, much better than Orioles. 

Look at the rest of the AL. Look at these teams in the WC race. Are they all set up for a great future? A couple of key players change the storyline. Look at Santana with the Twins and how important he has been. They added Colon for crying out loud. 

The Red Sox have been scoring runs along the same lines as the Orioles until this recent slump. Yes, they have young talent but also have warts. Sale and Pomeranz are the biggest difference between the 2 teams.  

I think this season has been mainly about a horrible rotation. Things can go either way the next couple of years. Some important decisions are looming.  

[tntoriole]

32 minutes ago, eddie83 said:

We have issues but outside of a couple of teams, most teams are flawed. The Yankees look pretty complete, I still think odds are next year some of their position players regress. The Indians are loaded, the Astros are loaded position player wise but I still see pitching issues - much, much better than Orioles. 

Look at the rest of the AL. Look at these teams in the WC race. Are they all set up for a great future? A couple of key players change the storyline. Look at Santana with the Twins and how important he has been. They added Colon for crying out loud. 

The Red Sox have been scoring runs along the same lines as the Orioles until this recent slump. Yes, they have young talent but also have warts. Sale and Pomeranz are the biggest difference between the 2 teams.  

I think this season has been mainly about a horrible rotation. Things can go either way the next couple of years. Some important decisions are looming.  

Yes, our GM picked signing Ubaldo.  This is what you pay GMs to do.  Get it right.  If not, they get fired.  That is just the game. 

 

And the important decision is about Manny.  Get that wrong and it will be a long time still until  the Os are in a World Series.   And I do not want Dan and Buck making this decision. 

[eddie83]

10 minutes ago, tntoriole said:

Yes, our GM picked signing Ubaldo.  This is what you pay GMs to do.  Get it right.  If not, they get fired.  That is just the game. 

 

And the important decision is about Manny.  Get that wrong and it will be a long time still until  the Os are in a World Series.   And I do not want Dan and Buck making this decision. 

That is fair. He also made some correct decisions.  

You put it all on Dan and Buck while ignoring the obvious, Peter Angelos.  

[tntoriole]

38 minutes ago, eddie83 said:

That is fair. He also made some correct decisions.  

You put it all on Dan and Buck while ignoring the obvious, Peter Angelos.  

Oh, if you have read any of my posts over the years, I take a back seat to no one in my thoughts about Mr. Potter Angelos.   Dan and Buck have done well adding to a team and leading that group and I have given both of them much credit, but I just, don't think they are going to be the individuals that will do near as well leading a strategic rebuild and if Dan and Buck stick to the 2013-2016 winter strategies, then Manny will be kept until he walks after 2018 and the rebuild will be much longer and more disastrous.

I recognize Potter is right in the middle of all of this and always has been, but that will not be the case for much longer.  And, in fact, Potter is the main reason Dan and Buck will likely complete their contracts...he really doesn't like paying off GMs and managers prematurely.   But if Dan and Buck want to keep the band together Manny and Trumbo and Davis and go with all their vets and add one retread free agent pitchers to Miley,etc . and give it another failed go in 2018...then Potter will certainly be down with that, for sure.   The problem will then be years 2019-2025. 

 

Yes, it is not ALL on the GM and manager, but in pro sports, when you win, you get extended.  When you lose, it is ,the next guy up.  Just comes with the game and they know that best of all.   Except sometimes managers might win but personally upset the owner, then you also get canned...i.e. Davey Johnson..lol. 

 

[eddie83]

4 minutes ago, tntoriole said:

Oh, if you have read any of my posts over the years, I take a back seat to no one in my thoughts about Mr. Potter Angelos.   Dan and Buck have done well adding to a team and leading that group and I have given both of them much credit, but I just, don't think they are going to be the individuals that will do near as well leading a strategic rebuild and if Dan and Buck stick to the 2013-2016 winter strategies, then Manny will be kept until he walks after 2018 and the rebuild will be much longer and more disastrous.

I recognize Potter is right in the middle of all of this and always has been, but that will not be the case for much longer.  And, in fact, Potter is the main reason Dan and Buck will likely complete their contracts...he really doesn't like paying off GMs and managers prematurely.   But if Dan and Buck want to keep the band together Manny and Trumbo and Davis and go with all their vets and add one retread free agent pitchers to Miley,etc . and give it another failed go in 2018...then Potter will certainly be down with that, for sure.   The problem will then be years 2019-2025. 

 

Yes, it is not ALL on the GM and manager, but in pro sports, when you win, you get extended.  When you lose, it is ,the next guy up.  Just comes with the game and they know that best of all.   Except sometimes managers might win but personally upset the owner, then you also get canned...i.e. Davey Johnson..lol. 

 

I think Buck is here as long as he wants to be in some capacity. He has the trust of ownership. I would be shocked if Dan is around beyond 2018. 

All I am trying to say is that the owner sets the course for an organization. Look around pro sports. You need to be big picture wise all on the same page.

 

If Buck stays around what is the impact on the rest of the Front Office? 

I am as concerned/intrigued/worried as anyone about the next 16 months or so. They need to get it right. 

[tntoriole]

53 minutes ago, eddie83 said:

I think Buck is here as long as he wants to be in some capacity. He has the trust of ownership. I would be shocked if Dan is around beyond 2018. 

All I am trying to say is that the owner sets the course for an organization. Look around pro sports. You need to be big picture wise all on the same page.

 

If Buck stays around what is the impact on the rest of the Front Office? 

I am as concerned/intrigued/worried as anyone about the next 16 months or so. They need to get it right. 

Absolutely agree.  There will be a change in the organizational ownership sooner rather than later.   But, in the interim, this offseason is a critical one for the next ten years.  And the question is whether it is just the same decision making as has been the case for the last five offseasons or whether a different GM (say one like Kim Ng, who would be the first female GM in history) can lead us to a different place.    We shall see. 

[webbrick2010]

Is there a masquerade? I haven't seen it

[Tx Oriole]

2 hours ago, eddie83 said:

That is fair. He also made some correct decisions.  

You put it all on Dan and Buck while ignoring the obvious, Peter Angelos.  

I am not ignoring Angelos as a problem. Of course he is. You are right DD has made some good moves. And Buck did help make the team better. But this season has soured a lot of fans on the FO. 

[eddie83]

20 minutes ago, Tx Oriole said:

I am not ignoring Angelos as a problem. Of course he is. You are right DD has made some good moves. And Buck did help make the team better. But this season has soured a lot of fans on the FO. 

And that is fine. I just think organizations with better resources tend to do better over the course of time.  

[eddie83]

3 hours ago, birdwatcher55 said:

Angelos authorized a $160 mil payroll and Duquette has badly bungled it.  Need to keep things in perspective. Duquette should be removed.

Don't agree. Dan does not have a true budget. You think Dan could have pocketed the Davis money and spent it towards a starting pitcher? Once again not saying he doesn't deserve criticism.  

[spiritof66]

5 hours ago, tntoriole said:

Absolutely agree.  There will be a change in the organizational ownership sooner rather than later.   But, in the interim, this offseason is a critical one for the next ten years.  And the question is whether it is just the same decision making as has been the case for the last five offseasons or whether a different GM (say one like Kim Ng, who would be the first female GM in history) can lead us to a different place.    We shall see. 

I would like to see a smart, young (I was surprised to see that Ng is 48 -- time flies) GM that might drag this franchise into the 21st century. (I proposed Ng as an example of the kind of person the  Orioles should hire one or two GM vacancies ago.) But I doubt we'll get anyone who hasn't either been a GM before or been around the organization for a while.

I don't have any reason to think that Brady or Buck has the qualities I would look for in a GM. Buck, in fact, seems to lack those qualities from what I can see in his decisions as a manager. Brady's off-field qualities (other than in conditioning players) remain something of a mystery to me.