Who's most to blame for this mess?

[eddie83]

3 minutes ago, LookitsPuck said:

He signed Trumbo for nearly the same deal as Cruz, when it was clear as day from any meaningful stats that Cruz was the better player. So why not after 2014 resign Cruz?

Duquette was so wrapped up in leaving for Toronto that he abandoned the club. 

So wrong. You are telling me that if Angelos was willing to pay a 4th year Cruz walks? He stays.

You are angry about the Toronto issue and it has robbed you of objectivity. The owner did not want to give Cruz a 4th year. 

It has been widely reported that Dan did not push for Trumbo to be brought back but convince yourself otherwise. 

[LookitsPuck]

1 minute ago, eddie83 said:

This is unreal. 

The Orioles were in their 10th consecutive losing season when Andy was hired. 10th. 

In Dan’s first year they won 93 games and were an eyelash from the ALCS. Made postseason 3 out of 5 years. 

You are trying to compare two entirely different scenarios.  Nobody forces Angelos to do anything. It’s his team. I am amazed that people think they would have been able to change the man. It just amazes me.  

In management, we have a job: to try and control narratives and convince ownership. 

In a weird way, after 2014...I think a lot of people in the organization soured on Duquette. And rightfully so. The guy was a Benedict Arnold in a way. He was blacklisted from baseball (for good reason), given an opportunity, had some success, given a 6 year extension and then tried to jump ship shortly into it.

Yes, I think there were different circumstances. But this club has been on a downhill swing since 2015 and beyond. If you're a GM and *can't* paint an accurate picture to ownership, you have no business being the GM. You've either lost the confidence (true) or are checked out (true) or are showing declining abilities relative to the market (true).

[brianod]

This is 1997 all over again. The key is, we don't have the money to spend to get ourselves out of it, so we have to follow the Astros path. I don't mind sucking for a few years if we come back strong but what I can't abide is a half ass effort where we spend another 15 years in the wilderness.  The first thing we need to do is hire the GM to build this.  Buck moving Manny to SS in a desperate attempt to get him to resign sent a terrible message to the entire organization. If I was the owner, I would fire DD now and get a guy to build from the ground up.  DD has made too many terrible mistakes to trust him to do that. Buck won't stay.  He and DD have both been good for the organization despite their warts.  But, it's time to rebuild and it's time to rebuild now. That starts with the GM and Buck has a choice to stay or go.  He's a fine manager but he's at the age where he might not want to stay. So, fire DD, hire a stud GM and start dumping players so that we can be good 4 years from now. My answer is all of the above.  But, we have enough money that if we are run competently, we can excel.

[PaulFolk]

7 minutes ago, LookitsPuck said:

He signed Trumbo for nearly the same deal as Cruz, when it was clear as day from any meaningful stats that Cruz was the better player. So why not after 2014 resign Cruz?

Duquette was so wrapped up in leaving for Toronto that he abandoned the club. 

Just to clarify, Trumbo's deal is not "nearly the same" as Cruz's. Cruz signed for 4 years, $57 million. Trumbo signed for 3 years, $37.5 million. Obviously the O's made a mistake both by letting Cruz walk and by re-signing Trumbo, but it's not as if they're making equal money.

[LookitsPuck]

12 minutes ago, eddie83 said:

So wrong. You are telling me that if Angelos was willing to pay a 4th year Cruz walks? He stays.

You are angry about the Toronto issue and it has robbed you of objectivity. The owner did not want to give Cruz a 4th year. 

It has been widely reported that Dan did not push for Trumbo to be brought back but convince yourself otherwise. 

Duquette traded for Trumbo. So who was it that requested that Duquette trade for Trumbo for Clevinger? Who was it that wanted Trumbo back on a 4 year deal? (edit 3 year deal, apologies)

Angelos has done > 3 year deals for plenty of Orioles position players over the year. Why the hell not Nelson Cruz? A lovable clubhouse guy. A leader. A guy who has shown very little to no offensive decline at the time.

[Deadwood Fan]

Just now, brianod said:

This is 1997 all over again. The key is, we don't have the money to spend to get ourselves out of it, so we have to follow the Astros path. I don't mind sucking for a few years if we come back strong but what I can't abide is a half ass effort where we spend another 15 years in the wilderness.  The first thing we need to do is hire the GM to build this.  Buck moving Manny to SS in a desperate attempt to get him to resign sent a terrible message to the entire organization. If I was the owner, I would fire DD now and get a guy to build from the ground up.  DD has made too many terrible mistakes to trust him to do that. Buck won't stay.  He and DD have both been good for the organization despite their warts.  But, it's time to rebuild and it's time to rebuild now. That starts with the GM and Buck has a choice to stay or go.  He's a fine manager but he's at the age where he might not want to stay. So, fire DD, hire a stud GM and start dumping players so that we can be good 4 years from now. My answer is all of the above.  But, we have enough money that if we are run competently, we can excel.

You mean 1998 not 1997? 

[LookitsPuck]

Just now, PaulFolk said:

Just to clarify, Trumbo's deal is not "nearly the same" as Cruz's. Cruz signed for 4 years, $57 million. Trumbo signed for 3 years, $37.5 million. Obviously the O's made a mistake both by letting Cruz walk and by re-signing Trumbo, but it's not as if they're making equal money.

Nelson Cruz AAV: $14.25m

Trumbo AAV: $12.5m

That's really not much difference. ($1.75m). I get it if you're harping over the 4th year being the differentiator, but we're not talking major money here, especially with guys like Chris Davis making worlds more.

 

[eddie83]

Just now, LookitsPuck said:

In management, we have a job: to try and control narratives and convince ownership. 

In a weird way, after 2014...I think a lot of people in the organization soured on Duquette. And rightfully so. The guy was a Benedict Arnold in a way. He was blacklisted from baseball (for good reason), given an opportunity, had some success, given a 6 year extension and then tried to jump ship shortly into it.

Yes, I think there were different circumstances. But this club has been on a downhill swing since 2015 and beyond. If you're a GM and *can't* paint an accurate picture to ownership, you have no business being the GM. You've either lost the confidence (true) or are checked out (true) or are showing declining abilities relative to the market (true).

The same owner who doesn’t spend in a market where 30% of the talent comes from and it is an industry standard, that owner?

If you owned the club why would you keep on this inept and traitorous person? Are you trying to sabatoge your own team? 

Dan traded Britton last July. 

Dan is the one who brought up trading Manny this past offseason. 

For a guy who supposedly doesn’t give a damn about the future then why do that? 

[brianod]

Just now, Deadwood Fan said:

You mean 1998 not 1997? 

yes

 

[LookitsPuck]

8 minutes ago, eddie83 said:

The same owner who doesn’t spend in a market where 30% of the talent comes from and it is an industry standard, that owner?

If you owned the club why would you keep on this inept and traitorous person? Are you trying to sabatoge your own team? 

Dan traded Britton last July. 

Dan is the one who brought up trading Manny this past offseason. 

For a guy who supposedly doesn’t give a damn about the future then why do that? 

Dan traded Britton last July? News to me. Last I heard he's on the 60 day DL and will be activated later this month/early June.

Dan brought up trading Manny this past offseason?

For all the talk we heard about the Chris Davis negotiations...and the fact that he got a historic deal. Why on Earth have we *never* heard Manny Machado extensions?

Angelos has a lot of warts. The international issue is my biggest issue with him. But Duquette has had more than enough money to work with year in and year out. That's never been the issue.

[eddie83]

2 minutes ago, LookitsPuck said:

Duquette traded for Trumbo. So who was it that requested that Duquette trade for Trumbo for Clevinger? Who was it that wanted Trumbo back on a 4 year deal?

Angelos has done > 3 year deals for plenty of Orioles position players over the year. Why the hell not Nelson Cruz? A lovable clubhouse guy. A leader. A guy who has shown very little to no offensive decline at the time.

Ask Angelos. I bet due to his age.

Just because Dan traded for Trumbo does not mean he pushed for his contract. Dan also signed Cruz didn’t he? Using your logic would he not have pushed to keep Cruz since he brought him in also? 

[LookitsPuck]

3 minutes ago, eddie83 said:

Ask Angelos. I bet due to his age.

Just because Dan traded for Trumbo does not mean he pushed for his contract. Dan also signed Cruz didn’t he? Using your logic would he not have pushed to keep Cruz since he brought him in also? 

If he didn't have one foot out the door? Probably.

Was age a big differentiator especially considering Trumbo has been inconsistent at best? Seems like an odd thing to harp on. Hell, JJ Hardy was in his early 30s. :shrug: Seems that Trumbo (30), JJ Hardy (31 or 32, can't recall) and Nelson Cruz (33) are all within one another. The difference is Cruz and Hardy were more established and more deserving. Trumbo was a 1 year wonder.

[eddie83]

2 minutes ago, LookitsPuck said:

Dan traded Britton last July? News to me. Last I heard he's on the 60 day DL and will be activated later this month/early June.

Dan brought up trading Manny this past offseason?

For all the talk we hear about the Chris Davis negotiations...and the fact that he got a historic deal. Why on Earth have we *never* heard Manny Machado extensions?

Angelos has a lot of warts. The international issue is my biggest issue with him. But Duquette has had more than enough money to work with year in and year out. That's never been the issue.

Yes and yes. Britton deal was vetoed. 

When did the Manny trade rumors start? When Dan brought them up, that is when.  

Now you are really getting out there. You think Dan determines what the Orioles offer Manny? You honestly believe that? It was Dan’s call?  

Sick and tired of hearing about the Orioles spending. It isn’t a true budget. 

[eddie83]

5 minutes ago, LookitsPuck said:

If he didn't have one foot out the door? Probably.

Was age a big differentiator especially considering Trumbo has been inconsistent at best? Seems like an odd thing to harp on. Hell, JJ Hardy was in his early 30s. :shrug: Seems that Trumbo (30), JJ Hardy (31 or 32, can't recall) and Nelson Cruz (33) are all within one another. The difference is Cruz and Hardy were more established and more deserving. Trumbo was a 1 year wonder.

What is your point?  Once again they would not give Cruz a 4th year. End of story. 

 

[LookitsPuck]

2 minutes ago, eddie83 said:

Yes and yes. Britton deal was vetoed. 

When did the Manny trade rumors start? When Dan brought them up, that is when.  

Now you are really getting out there. You think Dan determines what the Orioles offer Manny? You honestly believe that? It was Dan’s call?  

Sick and tired of hearing about the Orioles spending. It isn’t a true budget. 

Until people are willing to put a big portion of the blame on Duquette, then we can't have a true discussion.

Angelos is a big part of the blame. I refuse to blame budget. They're not the Athletics. They're not the White Sox. They're a small/mid market team that has routinely had payrolls well within what should be expected of them.

We'll never know the full details of the Britton deal. I have a very hard time believing that Angelos is so ingrained with the club any longer (especially with his health issues over the last couple years) that he's miraculously vetoing deals without management (Duquette) being lukewarm on the deal. 

Manny's trade rumours have only *recently* started. We haven't heard a lick of anything in regards to extensions for years. Why? 

I absolutely do think Dan determines what the O's offer Manny. The same way that I think Duquette outbid himself for Davis. For Trumbo. These are all Dan. Same w/ Gallardo. Same w/ Ubaldo. Same w/ Cobb. Is that all Angelos behind the scenes pulling the strings to?

These conspiracy theories are bonkers.