Jonathan Villar- Our new 2B?

[Redskins Rick]

28 minutes ago, Ruzious said:

And ftr, the O's got Carmona and Ortiz in the Schoop trade - 2 prospects with high ceilings - exactly the kind of prospects the O's should have been going for.  Without using any crystal ball, that was a very smart trade for the O's.      

Unless somebody has an agenda with the FO, and wants to complain about every thing.  [Not yourself]

I like the trade, not like this team is going anywhere, we need young prospects to make the future better.

[wildbillhiccup]

1 hour ago, CallMeBrooksie said:

And what if Schoop continues to play poorly for the rest of his contract? In your evaluation model, it's only fair to consider that as well.

If we were evaluating the trade for the Brewers, then yes I agree, but we're not. We're looking at it solely from Orioles perspective. In terms of Schoop he was an established MLB player and all that mattered was his value at the time of the trade. Teams don't discount proven players when they trade them because they "think" they're going to regress. They try to get a return based on their current value. 

[Tx Oriole]

46 minutes ago, Ruzious said:

And ftr, the O's got Carmona and Ortiz in the Schoop trade - 2 prospects with high ceilings - exactly the kind of prospects the O's should have been going for.  Without using any crystal ball, that was a very smart trade for the O's.      

I agree.

[LA2]

5 hours ago, VaBird1 said:

The Orioles will have three guys with 10 stolen bases this year!

Next year we might have three guys with more than 20!

Or one with 60 (The Villain), one with 30 (The Entertainer), and another with 20 (A Gentry/Andreoli/Peterson/Steward/Diaz type or combo)!

[wildbillhiccup]

46 minutes ago, Ruzious said:

And ftr, the O's got Carmona and Ortiz in the Schoop trade - 2 prospects with high ceilings - exactly the kind of prospects the O's should have been going for.  Without using any crystal ball, that was a very smart trade for the O's.      

I wasn't complaining about the trade. I just said that Villar wasn't the important piece of the deal in terms of determining if it's a success. It's the prospects that you mentioned (and how they progress).  

[Ruzious]

11 minutes ago, wildbillhiccup said:

I wasn't complaining about the trade. I just said that Villar wasn't the important piece of the deal in terms of determining if it's a success. It's the prospects that you mentioned (and how they progress).  

And again, he is an important part of the trade.  Besides being good to have in the interim, he will likely have good trade value if they decide to trade him next season.   

[LA2]

1 hour ago, wildbillhiccup said:

I wasn't complaining about the trade. I just said that Villar wasn't the important piece of the deal in terms of determining if it's a success. It's the prospects that you mentioned (and how they progress).  

I see your point and it typifies that of many here. Building for the future is, of course, top priority, but we also need undisgusting, even watchable, entertaining baseball in the meantime. "Respect the game!," as Miggy (the Tejada Miggy) used to say. Moreover, we need lots of new fans to keep the franchise and legacy going.

It seems that Villar could play a big role in the Orioles being able to provide that (although, of course, he would be just one of many, many factors). After all, the great future may never come! During the next 4-5 years, will we ever have a better chance than we did throughout most of 2014? Who's to say, but we definitely need to have fun in the meantime, right? Villar-type fun, not lugubrious, gloveless swatting of solo homers late in yet another boring, humiliating loss.

[Frobby]

3 hours ago, wildbillhiccup said:

You can't evaluate/judge something that hasn't happened. The point I was making is that the prospects that we got in return for Schoop will determine how the trade worked out, not Villar. If they're able to flip him that's fine, but I'm not as optimistic as you are because I know the Brewers have been trying to trade him (unsuccessfully) for years. 

Villar is part of the return in the trade.    Maybe not the most important piece in the deal, but important enough.   He’s a major league player who’s under control a year longer than Schoop.    That’s not trivial.   I agree we need to see how Ortiz and Carmona pan out before judging the result of this trade, and it would be disappointing if neither of them developed into anything.    

[CallMeBrooksie]

2 hours ago, wildbillhiccup said:

If we were evaluating the trade for the Brewers, then yes I agree, but we're not. We're looking at it solely from Orioles perspective. In terms of Schoop he was an established MLB player and all that mattered was his value at the time of the trade. Teams don't discount proven players when they trade them because they "think" they're going to regress. They try to get a return based on their current value. 

But that's objectively not how it works. If you're going to evaluate the O's return based on how they perform moving forward, then you have to apply the same approach to what they gave up. 

Or, if you want to look at it like that (a major league player at a point in time), you could say that we gave up a below average hitter with an average glove and should be happy to get back any production at all in return.

[weams]

3 hours ago, Ruzious said:

And ftr, the O's got Carmona and Ortiz in the Schoop trade - 2 prospects with high ceilings - exactly the kind of prospects the O's should have been going for.  Without using any crystal ball, that was a very smart trade for the O's.      

Thank you.

[weams]

1 hour ago, Frobby said:

Villar is part of the return in the trade.    Maybe not the most important piece in the deal, but important enough.   He’s a major league player who’s under control a year longer than Schoop.    That’s not trivial.   I agree we need to see how Ortiz and Carmona pan out before judging the result of this trade, and it would be disappointing if neither of them developed into anything.    

Absolutely. And far better on defense/

[weams]

2 hours ago, LA2 said:

I see your point and it typifies that of many here. Building for the future is, of course, top priority, but we also need undisgusting, even watchable, entertaining baseball in the meantime. "Respect the game!," as Miggy (the Tejada Miggy) used to say. Moreover, we need lots of new fans to keep the franchise and legacy going.

It seems that Villar could play a big role in the Orioles being able to provide that (although, of course, he would be just one of many, many factors). After all, the great future may never come! During the next 4-5 years, will we ever have a better chance than we did throughout most of 2014? Who's to say, but we definitely need to have fun in the meantime, right? Villar-type fun, not lugubrious, gloveless swatting of solo homers late in yet another boring, humiliating loss.

The new fans will arrive with post season play. 

[LookitsPuck]

6 hours ago, wildbillhiccup said:

They're playing for the future so if the rest of the deal turns out to be lackluster then it wasn't a good move for us. 

OH, I agree. If this was a scenario where Duquette took an established major leaguer instead of being able to get a better prospect, then it was a poor decision.

[Can_of_corn]

2 minutes ago, LookitsPuck said:

OH, I agree. If this was a scenario where Duquette took an established major leaguer instead of being able to get a better prospect, then it was a poor decision.

I think is was a scenario that a deal doesn't get made if Villar isn't part of it.

[25 Nuggets]

Villar is OPSing .714 on the season now, which is .006 off his career average.  He is OPS+ing 92, which is 1 point off his career average of 93.  To date, he has 2.2 rWAR and 1.3 fWAR.  Both systems have a positive defensive component so strangely there's a disagreement with his offensive component.

Anyway, Villar has been much better at getting on base than Schoop, for either team, and we know about his speed.  It's feasible that a straight up trade, Villar for Schoop will end up a win for the Orioles... much less getting those extra pieces.  I really didn't understand what the Brewers were thinking anyway.  Schoop at SS?