Time to Follow the Rays SP Theory

[Frobby]

11 minutes ago, weams said:

The Orioles are not a good touch stone as they are the worst team. 

The Red Sox have used 23 pitchers, 18 of whom have thrown 10+ innings.    

[weams]

1 minute ago, Frobby said:

The Red Sox have used 23 pitchers, 18 of whom have thrown 10+ innings.    

And they use openers?

[wildbillhiccup]

2 hours ago, FlipTheBird said:

Well strategy is key, too, which makes comparing the O's stats to the Rays apples to oranges.

If Dylan Bundy knows he's only throwing three innings, no matter what, he doesn't have to worry about saving his arm or staggering his pitch use to make it through, 5, 6 or 7 innings. He can show all 9 guys his baby slider because they won't see it again that day, etc.

Nobody puts Dylan Bundy's baby slider in the corner (nobody). 

[Frobby]

22 minutes ago, weams said:

And they use openers?

No.    My point here was that to go with the Rays’ strategy requires careful management of the roster. The Rays have used more pitchers than other teams, both in total numbers but also pitchers who got  a bit of playing time.    And it’s a necessary byproduct of the strategy they’re following.  That is my point.    

[weams]

1 minute ago, Frobby said:

No.    My point here was that to go with the Rays’ strategy requires careful management of the roster. The Rays have used more pitchers than other teams, both in total numbers but also pitchers who got  a bit of playing time.    And it’s a necessary byproduct of the strategy they’re following.  That is my point.    

Got it. I am against the whole opener concept. It's really not baseball and I don;t think long tern it would succeed. 

[Can_of_corn]

8 minutes ago, Frobby said:

No.    My point here was that to go with the Rays’ strategy requires careful management of the roster. The Rays have used more pitchers than other teams, both in total numbers but also pitchers who got  a bit of playing time.    And it’s a necessary byproduct of the strategy they’re following.  That is my point.    

Are they using more pitchers because of the strategy or has the myriad injuries to their starting pitchers forced them to adopt the strategy?

At the base level of the strategy, having a relief pitcher pitch the first inning, the effect of pitcher usage would be minimal.  How many CG does the average team have in a season these days?  In all the rest of the games the bullpen will be forced to throw at least one inning.  It makes no difference in usage if that inning is the first instead of the ninth, or the seventh.

[NCRaven]

22 minutes ago, Can_of_corn said:

At the base level of the strategy, having a relief pitcher pitch the first inning, the effect of pitcher usage would be minimal.  How many CG does the average team have in a season these days?  In all the rest of the games the bullpen will be forced to throw at least one inning.  It makes no difference in usage if that inning is the first instead of the ninth, or the seventh.

My only counter argument is that if you use a reliever for one inning, and that inning is the first inning - generally a low leverage inning, one less pitcher will be available latter in the game in a high leverage situation.

[Can_of_corn]

3 minutes ago, NCRaven said:

My only counter argument is that if you use a reliever for one inning, and that inning is the first inning - generally a low leverage inning, one less pitcher will be available latter in the game in a high leverage situation.

But since a disproportionate amount of scoring takes place in the first inning is it really low leverage?  I would think denying the opposition a run in the first, when their offense is optimally arrayed against you, has extra value.

[NCRaven]

Just now, Can_of_corn said:

But since a disproportionate amount of scoring takes place in the first inning is it really low leverage?  

Is that true throughout baseball or just a Tillman/Gausman thing?  :-)

How many times do relievers enter games and give up runs in their first inning of work?  Not sure that having a "opener" pitch the first inning will deny the opposition a run in the first any more than using a traditional "starter" would.  Admittedly, I just don't know.

[Can_of_corn]

4 minutes ago, NCRaven said:

Is that true throughout baseball or just a Tillman/Gausman thing? 

How many times do relievers enter games and give up runs in their first inning of work?  Not sure that having a "opener" pitch the first inning will deny the opposition a run in the first any more than using a traditional "starter" would.  Admittedly, I just don't know.

 

[NCRaven]

It'll be interesting when we have enough data to see how this has worked out.  New norm?  Interesting fad?

[FlipTheBird]

37 minutes ago, NCRaven said:

It'll be interesting when we have enough data to see how this has worked out.  New norm?  Interesting fad?

Almost assuredly just a passing fad. They come and go in all sports.

For it to ever be the "new norm," organizations would have to build their entire framework around the concept, beginning in the minors. Not happening.

[Can_of_corn]

9 minutes ago, FlipTheBird said:

Almost assuredly just a passing fad. They come and go in all sports.

For it to ever be the "new norm," organizations would have to build their entire framework around the concept, beginning in the minors. Not happening.

It's the future.  Maybe not the immediate future but its time will come. 

[Frobby]

1 hour ago, weams said:

Got it. I am against the whole opener concept. It's really not baseball and I don;t think long tern it would succeed. 

I’m against the reliever concept.    Make the pitcher throw until his arm falls off!

[foxfield]

4 hours ago, weams said:

Got it. I am against the whole opener concept. It's really not baseball and I don;t think long tern it would succeed. 

I don't think you are against it.  I think it's foreign as to how we see the game.  So, we are naturally put off.  But I can give you two two word thoughts that you yourself speak about quite often that if you were to pose a question how can we, would naturally get some credible answers pointing to the rays.

Given that they all break, how can we acquire quality pitching using less funds?