Baltimore Baseball: O's rebuild should include Buck

[PaulFolk]

20 minutes ago, wildcard said:

What?

Leaving starters in to allow 5, 6, 7, 8, 9 even 10 runs.

Putting rookie relievers in key innings with the game on the line.

Having rookie relievers pitch back to back games for the first time in key innings.

Sending your most experienced  catcher to the minors just as he is hitting for an 808 OPS in his last 8 games.  Replacing him with a guy would is fresh off the DL and is not hitting well yet.

Knowing that the team needs runs and that the Trumbo hits for an  850 OPS in right field and a 700 OPS at DH but seldom playing him in right.  Instead playing Santander, Peterson and Valencia in right.

So, to be clear...you're giving examples of specific things that Buck has done to lose games.

And you're doing this as a DEFENSE of Buck?

I think you've gotten yourself into the weeds with this one.

[wildcard]

6 minutes ago, foxfield said:

Im not sure exactly what you are angry about.  Starters that cannot pitch 3 innings?  Rule V guys that don't work?  Rookie pitchers getting experience when the club is 40 games out?  Sending Caleb down?  You are actually arguing the team is better off with Trumbo playing everyday as a RF.  I honestly don't get it.

Trumbo is certainly better if he plays and hits.  The fact that he cannot is a reason to move him.  And of course now that the season is ruined he should play and hit everyday because it increases the chances that he can be moved if the Orioles pay most or all of his salary.

The team has under performed almost across the board.  Bad roster, bad injuries, bad weather bad...just bad.  Here is the thing...I don't care who pitches.  I dont care who plays RF.  I mean of course I do care.  But what I want is to know what are we trying to do?  When we "were going for it" it looked like a pretty half assed attempt to me.  Sort of let's give it a shot since we have everyone here anyway.

But now, honestly the only thing I care about is who is in charge of a plan.  Period.  The Orioles have done some good things and its pretty easy to get behind the idea that can nd will get better from here.  But honestly, I cannot tell what you want.  But Im pretty sure that whatever it is, Caleb Joseph and Mark Trumbo are not getting it for you.

I  think you made my point on Trumbo.

Quote

Trumbo is certainly better if he plays and hits.  The fact that he cannot is a reason to move him.  And of course now that the season is ruined he should play and hit everyday because it increases the chances that he can be moved if the Orioles pay most or all of his salary.

 

In 2016 the O's won 89 games.  Trumbo played 95 games in right field.  He hit off a 850 OPS, hit 47 homer and drove in 108.   Is he a good richfielder defensively. Heck no.  Does his production when he plays right give the O's a better chance to win then playing Santander,  Peterson and Valencia there.  Probably.

Buck knows all this but does not play him in right when the team is in need of runs to win.  If the team wanted to win or is the goal is get the best draft choice they can?

[wildcard]

14 minutes ago, PaulFolk said:

So, to be clear...you're giving examples of specific things that Buck has done to lose games.

And you're doing this as a DEFENSE of Buck?

I think you've gotten yourself into the weeds with this one.

Not if its a team decision to tank and get a better draft choice.   A decision made in mid May by ownership and management.

[PaulFolk]

Just now, wildcard said:

Not if its a team decision to tank and get a better draft choice.   A decision made in mid May by ownership and management.

No front office in baseball orders its manager to intentionally lose games, much less in mid-May. And no self-respecting manager would go along with that plan. That's complete nonsense, and I think you know it.

If you can't come up with a better defense for Buck than a theory that's literally insane, then maybe you need to rethink your position on whether Buck should stay.

[atomic]

Do you think if any of us managed the Orioles this year their record would be any worse?

[Dipper9]

1 hour ago, wildcard said:

What?

Leaving starters in to allow 5, 6, 7, 8, 9 even 10 runs.

Putting rookie relievers in key innings with the game on the line.

Having rookie relievers pitch back to back games for the first time in key innings.

Sending your most experienced  catcher to the minors just as he is hitting for an 808 OPS in his last 8 games.  Replacing him with a guy would is fresh off the DL and is not hitting well yet.

Knowing that the team needs runs and that the Trumbo hits for an  850 OPS in right field and a 700 OPS at DH but seldom playing him in right.  Instead playing Santander, Peterson and Valencia in right.

Wait, what?  Caleb got sent back down?

[foxfield]

5 minutes ago, wildcard said:

I  think you made my point on Trumbo.

In 2016 the O's won 89 games.  Trumbo played 95 games in right field.  He hit off a 850 OPS, hit 47 homer and drove in 108.   Is he a good richfielder defensively. Heck no.  Does his production when he plays right give the O's a better chance to win then playing Santander,  Peterson and Valencia there.  Probably.

Buck knows all this but does not play him in right when the team is in need of runs to win.  If the team wanted to win or is the goal is get the best draft choice they can?

This is your point?  I thought your point was we should extend Buck.  We should keep Buck because he is doing an outstanding job at tanking.  And your proof of this is that he is brilliantly not unleashing the weapon of Mark Trumbo in RF?

If Buck is intentionally excelling at trying to lose, which I think is what you are saying, I hope he never manages again and certainly not here.

But Buck is not doing that.

[maybenxtyr]

31 minutes ago, wildcard said:

Not if its a team decision to tank and get a better draft choice.   A decision made in mid May by ownership and management.

Did Manny buy into tanking? 

Did Cobb sign a contract and agree to not pitch well a month into it?

I think there are deeper issues with this team, hence the terrible record.

[LTO's]

I have immense respect for beat reporters and how thankless of a job it can often be. But the spell that Buck has over all of the beat writers is very evident. I think it’s because he’s a generally amicable guy, especially with them and he was the manager that presided over the first winning teams in forever (some of these guys covered the team for years when they were hopeless). You cannot keep Buck around beyond this year. I’m totally find with showing him the respect of letting him play this year out but his contract expiration perfectly aligns with our supposed new direction.

I have watched more horrible O’s teams than good O’s teams in my life but NONE have been as bad as this team has been over the past year. His embrace of analytics and defense seems so transparently hollow to me. His lineup constructions are horrible, he continually plays people in suboptimal positions, and he made the single worst managerial decision I’ve ever seen based entirely on his old-school, outdated ways.  Keeping him would be so stale. I respect a lot of what he’s done here but it also should be stated that this is a guy that ONE playoff series win in his entire career.

[wildbillhiccup]

2 hours ago, Can_of_corn said:

They are scared of him.

I agree 100%. They all seem intimidated by Buck. There's a fine line between being sarcastic / sharp-witted and an (rhymes with brass pole). 

[Can_of_corn]

2 minutes ago, wildbillhiccup said:

I agree 100%. They all seem intimidated by Buck. There's a fine line between being sarcastic / sharp-witted and an (rhymes with brass pole). 

I step over that line a lot.

[El Gordo]

58 minutes ago, wildcard said:

Not if its a team decision to tank and get a better draft choice.   A decision made in mid May by ownership and management.

[LocoChris]

No thanks. 

[Legend_Of_Joey]

42 minutes ago, Dipper9 said:

Wait, what?  Caleb got sent back down?

Nah, he was referring to when Caleb was sent down for Susac.

[Grt 2BA FL Gator]

I'm not opposed at all if DD and Buck could and are willing to work together to rebuild this thing. I think I'd rather have DD over Buck if it's between the two, just because we need a stable GM more than manager. 

I think losing both DD and Buck would be a bit too uncertain for my taste, unless we were able to hit a metaphorical home run on a hire for GM or manager to replace them. 

I do think Buck is really good at rebuilds and he's proven it time and time again. And I hate that we've under performed the last year or so, but he also helped this team over perform for the first 6 years of his tenure. 

If Buck is energized by the rebuild and wants to manage it and is open to continually growing himself, I'd definitely be open to it. I'd prefer someone younger, but I don't know who that would be that's realistic. 

I'm open to see how things shake out.